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Thread: Detroit goes Chapter 9

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by cofc View Post
    Yeah that is the explanation of the whites that left after the richer people left because of Detroit's self-destructive political policies.
    You clearly don't understand what white flight is. It's purely a racially motivated phenomenon.

    But hey, I have no interest in prolonging this ridiculous "No, you!" back and forth.
    Last edited by jdurand; 07-20-2013 at 08:33 PM.

  2. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdurand View Post
    You clearly don't understand what white flight is. It's purely a racially motivated phenomenon.
    Is it racially motivated or culturally motivated? I'm betting it's more the latter. While you can call it "white flight" and try to make it a race issue, I don't think it is at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mighty Quinn View Post
    Should all the people who lost money in investments also get their money cause it was promised? What about stuff like bernie madoff(sp)?
    Investments assume a risk of loss.

    If you promise to pay someone, and then don't pay them, you have reneged on your promise. Pensions are part of their defined compensation, it's the equivalent of going to work for someone, working there for 20 dollars an hour, with 5 dollars an hour being held in a special account, and then being told that the account was going away and you had in actuality worked for 15$/hr instead. It's not the terms of employment you agreed to when you took the job, and it was compensation that was promised to you. It's the same with being forced to work off the clock, it's a theft from the worker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshyyy View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Evil View Post
    Is it racially motivated or culturally motivated? I'm betting it's more the latter. While you can call it "white flight" and try to make it a race issue, I don't think it is at all.
    The word first came about during the 1950's and 1960's. There were large migrations of blacks moving from the South to major northern cities (think Detroit, Milwaukee, Cleveland, etc...the area we now typically refer to as the Rust Belt). As they moved in, the established white middle-class (not the wealthy, as cofc claim...they were already safely tucked away in their enclaves) got uncomfortable with the racial mix in their neighborhoods so they began moving to the suburbs, creating the first of the urban sprawl we now see today (they kept moving further out as minorities continued to encroach on their racially homogenous communities).

    It's a real phenomenon and it's not called "white flight" simply because the rhyme makes it catchy.
    Last edited by jdurand; 07-20-2013 at 11:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdurand View Post
    The word first came about during the 1950's and 1960's. There were large migrations of blacks moving from the South to major northern cities (think Detroit, Milwaukee, Cleveland, etc...the area we now typically refer to as the Rust Belt). As they moved in, the established white middle-class (not the wealthy, as cofc claim...they were already safely tucked away in their enclaves) got uncomfortable with the racial mix in their neighborhood so they moved to the suburbs, creating the first of the urban sprawl we now see today (they kept moving further out as minorities continued to encroach on their racially homogenous communities).

    It's a real phenomenon and it's not call "white flight" simply because the rhyme makes it catchy.
    I think we can all agree that people in the 50s and 60s were racists ********. It would make sense for those leaving the south to avoid racial tensions to flock to those areas due to the boom in jobs there at the time.

    What I was addressing though is the current state of Detroit and people abandoning homes... is it fair to label that white flight? While people may have been leaving the area since the 50s, those people were replaced with the blacks that migrated there. But now, so many years later, it's not just one race that's leaving. The business left and people left after.

    I don't think that would be white flight. I think that would be economic conditions made it so those that wanted jobs wanted to leave to find jobs. Those that stayed behind voted democrat and further ran the city into the ground. I don't see a racial motivation.

    Some of those that still had jobs there left over the years. That's where the culturally motivated part in my statement comes in. As the businesses left and the city fell to ****, the crime rate increased. The increase in crime rate would be cultural. Cultural does not mean racial. The area became poorer and those that were sick of being afraid of having their car stolen, house broke into, being shot, ect, left for safer neighborhoods.

    I guess to sum up this whole thing I wrote- while the 50s produced "white flight" can you really call the continued abandonment of the city "white flight"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Evil View Post
    What I was addressing though is the current state of Detroit and people abandoning homes... is it fair to label that white flight?
    Cofc is the one who injected the phrase into this thread. I was merely point out his misunderstanding/misusage of it.

    Detroit's economic did begin because of white flight though. As the white middle class began moving out of the city so to did the middle class jobs, leaving largely manufacturing jobs. When the US started having problems keeping up with foreign manufacturers (specifically in the auto industry) beginning in the 1970's things continued to decline. When the US began the wholesale outsourcing of manufacturing jobs overseas, largely beginning in the 1980's, in order to remain competitive, that was it...the point of no return. No coming back from that ****, if you're a city/area that that only has manufacturing to rely upon.

    Many people have tried to spark economic interest in Detroit, but no one has found "that one thing" that is going to boomerang the city out of its death throws.

    I was in Rochester last year for a wedding and we took a day trip to the city (out of curiosity more than anything else). To say it's depressing to look at is an understatement. You have to drive 20-30 miles out of the city or more before things start looking better. The whole area just has a decaying feel to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Evil
    I guess to sum up this whole thing I wrote- while the 50s produced "white flight" can you really call the continued abandonment of the city "white flight"?
    No, and I haven't. But that is definitely the thing that started the whole ball rolling.

    Now, stop trying to defend this cofc character. You're making all of the rest of us here uncomfortable.

  7. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdurand View Post
    Cofc is the one who injected the phrase into this thread. I was merely point out his misunderstanding/misusage of it.
    I didn't notice that. I thought you brought it in and you usually know what you're talking about so I took it serious. Had I known it was cofc that introduced the term I would have ignored it and derailed the thread with lolcatz by now.

    That being said, I'll go ahead and finish just because the kids are watching a movie and I can't play xbox until it's over.

    Detroit's economic did begin because of white flight though. As the white middle class began moving out of the city so to did the middle class jobs, leaving largely manufacturing jobs. When the US started having problems keeping up with foreign manufacturers (specifically in the auto industry) beginning in the 1970's things continued to decline. When the US began the wholesale outsourcing of manufacturing jobs overseas, largely beginning in the 1980's, in order to remain competitive, that was it...the point of no return. No coming back from that ****, if you're a city/area that that only has manufacturing to rely upon.
    It wasn't just Detroit that had that type of decay though. It was all over. What cities will be declaring bankruptcy next?

    And while I want to say that I can't believe that the middle class jobs left with the middle class (it would make more sense to keep business as usual and fill those jobs with people remaining in the city) I know of the racist history of this country. Not wanting to believe it doesn't make it truth.

    I was in Rochester last year for a wedding and we took a day trip to the city (out of curiosity more than anything else). To say it's depressing to look at is an understatement. You have to drive 20-30 miles out of the city or more before things start looking better. The whole area just has a decaying feel to it.
    I want to go on a rant here about new age beliefs about vibrational energies. I'll skip it because I think I'm the only new agey person here.

    Now, stop trying to defend this cofc character. You're making all of the rest of us here uncomfortable.
    I think he's rude and trollish. He's like the son of Lurk that has Erbal as a stepdad. It's an interesting combination. He's entertaining but with that avatar I can't take anything he says seriously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Evil View Post
    It wasn't just Detroit that had that type of decay though. It was all over. What cities will be declaring bankruptcy next?
    You're absolutely correct. And if you trace the recent history of many of them (last 60 years or so), you'll see similar deteriorating conditions (again beginning with white flight). That is until maybe the last 20 years or so. Places like Milwaukee and Cleveland are still a long way from being prosperous cities but they've seemed to find something that has kept them further above water than Detroit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Evil
    And while I want to say that I can't believe that the middle class jobs left with the middle class (it would make more sense to keep business as usual and fill those jobs with people remaining in the city) I know of the racist history of this country. Not wanting to believe it doesn't make it truth.
    Think of what middle-class jobs were at the time (and largely still are today). White collar office jobs. As the middle class left and the population was replaced with a largely blue collar workforce from the south, those middle class jobs went where they could find employees.

    Keep in mind, none of this was an overnight occurrence. It all happened over years and years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Evil
    I want to go on a rant here about new age beliefs about vibrational energies. I'll skip it because I think I'm the only new agey person here.
    Well, I'm not particularly new-agey but I don't have issues with people who are. The whole area definitely felt like it had a dying aura around it. I just can't see how a city in this much decline is going to be able to turn itself around, no matter who is in charge.

    You almost feel like saying, move everyone out, burn the whole place down and start over from scratch.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Evil
    I think he's rude and trollish. He's like the son of Lurk that has Erbal as a stepdad. It's an interesting combination. He's entertaining but with that avatar I can't take anything he says seriously.
    If he came across with any degree of stinging wit and sarcasm, I might be inclined to think he was Baron D on a new account. I realized very quickly though that he has absolutely none of the characteristics that made Baron such an enjoyable jerk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdurand View Post
    You almost feel like saying, move everyone out, burn the whole place down and start over from scratch.
    But Little Caesar's is based in Detroit!

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshyyy View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Evil View Post
    I think we can all agree that people in the 50s and 60s were racists ********. It would make sense for those leaving the south to avoid racial tensions to flock to those areas due to the boom in jobs there at the time.

    What I was addressing though is the current state of Detroit and people abandoning homes... is it fair to label that white flight? While people may have been leaving the area since the 50s, those people were replaced with the blacks that migrated there. But now, so many years later, it's not just one race that's leaving. The business left and people left after.

    I don't think that would be white flight. I think that would be economic conditions made it so those that wanted jobs wanted to leave to find jobs. Those that stayed behind voted democrat and further ran the city into the ground. I don't see a racial motivation.

    Some of those that still had jobs there left over the years. That's where the culturally motivated part in my statement comes in. As the businesses left and the city fell to ****, the crime rate increased. The increase in crime rate would be cultural. Cultural does not mean racial. The area became poorer and those that were sick of being afraid of having their car stolen, house broke into, being shot, ect, left for safer neighborhoods.

    I guess to sum up this whole thing I wrote- while the 50s produced "white flight" can you really call the continued abandonment of the city "white flight"?
    So, to sum it up, you actually think it's social, not cultural and it shouldn't be lumped in with race-based terminology like white flight? Damn, just when I was getting comfy on the other side of your fence as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirveri View Post
    But Little Caesar's is based in Detroit!
    I didn't know that.

    Never mind then...unless we can relocate their corporate HQ, temporarily/permanently just down the street from my house.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdurand View Post
    Think of what middle-class jobs were at the time (and largely still are today). White collar office jobs. As the middle class left and the population was replaced with a largely blue collar workforce from the south, those middle class jobs went where they could find employees.
    I want to go on a rant here that the new residence could have easily filled those jobs. Then I paused to think about it. In the 50s, schools were still segregated (I think) especially in the south. The black schools didn't have the education level that the white schools had. (/resists going into rant about funding for inner city schools with mostly black kids now)

    So even obvious employer discrimination back then aside, there is a distinct possibility that those migrating from the south did not have the education to fill those roles. I don't know though. I'm speculating.

    Well, I'm not particularly new-agey but I don't have issues with people who are. The whole area definitely felt like it had a dying aura around it. I just can't see how a city in this much decline is going to be able to turn itself around, no matter who is in charge.
    It's odd that most people dismiss the idea of vibrational energy on a spiritual level yet all feel it. Try to explain it though and people put their fingers in their ears and hit themselves on the head with a bible while yelling "burn the witch".

    You almost feel like saying, move everyone out, burn the whole place down and start over from scratch.
    Bulldoze it and use it for farmland.

    If he came across with any degree of stinging wit and sarcasm, I might be inclined to think he was Baron D on a new account. I realized very quickly though that he has absolutely none of the characteristics that made Baron such an enjoyable jerk.
    He's not Baron. I would have sniffed him out by now if it were. Even he can't pull off a new persona that long. And he wasn't an enjoyable jerk. He was just an ******* and I'm glad he's forum dead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Evil View Post
    I want to go on a rant here that the new residence could have easily filled those jobs. Then I paused to think about it. In the 50s, schools were still segregated (I think) especially in the south. The black schools didn't have the education level that the white schools had. (/resists going into rant about funding for inner city schools with mostly black kids now).

    So even obvious employer discrimination back then aside, there is a distinct possibility that those migrating from the south did not have the education to fill those roles.
    Exactly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdurand View Post
    Exactly.
    I got something right?!

    I would like to thank my brain for stringing together a bunch of ideas that my brain magically turned into words that not only made sense, but was right. I don't think I've ever done that before. I went to public school. They didn't teach me that stuff.

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    Woot!

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    Quote Originally Posted by cofc View Post
    You are confused. The too much government caused those who could leave to leave. The richer people can just leave when they dislike bad political policies. This is what happened in Detroit.
    Actually, with Detroit, I'm pretty sure (and also pretty sure that most economists agree) that the problem was not political, but rather due to the collapse of the rust belt manufacturing jobs that the city relied heavily upon. (Edit: And jdurand, rather than the reliance on manufactuing being a result of 50's- and 60's-era white flight, the entire rust belt has had a heavy reliance on manufacturing jobs since the mid 1800's.)

    White flight normally refers to a movement out from the city center and into the suburbs and surrounding rural areas. With Detroit, I'm pretty sure that most of the population loss was going to other cities entirely, so as others were saying, that is not white flight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woden View Post
    White flight normally refers to a movement out from the city center and into the suburbs and surrounding rural areas. With Detroit, I'm pretty sure that most of the population loss was going to other cities entirely, so as others were saying, that is not white flight.
    I'm confused. Woden says one thing and jdurand says another. Just when I think I understand a concept, Woden has to come along and say "no, that's not right."

    So did white people leave Detroit in the 50s and 60s and if so was their leaving the city racial motivated? And in the 50s-60s when they left, did they leave the entire Detroit area or did they stay within the region?

  18. #98

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    Jdurand attributes it to racism. - MUH FEELINGS

    Woden attributes it to a collapse of manufacturing jobs. - MUH WELL REASONED FACT-BASED OPINION
    Excuse me for disagreeing that your degeneracy is sacred.

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    It's a very sad story, and it looks like a pretty awful place to live now. But if it could get up and running again, look at all those cheap houses and empty buildings!

    So, you have a city, that is in dire straights because the remaining population can't support the taxes needed to maintain infrastructure and social support. And because they have probably managed things pretty badly to date. So, under your economic laws, they file for bankruptcy to give them a better chance of long-term survival? But this means, like anyone else doing it, that creditors, employees etc. will miss out on some entitlements. Basically right?

    So, is there a place in a western economy to classify a city as needy instead of a person and supply funds from the less needy version?

    'Cos if ever any government was looking for a project, this one could prove some points.

    I'm not saying they should, just putting it out there. I know the federal government has given funds already, BTW.
    This is a primarily a social justice question. Although if there is billions being spent in stimulus funding, maybe it would stimulate something faster there than other areas? It's screaming out for a new industry.

    Quote Originally Posted by cofc View Post
    "Steal."
    This is the mindset of unions and public workers, f the collective, I want mine.
    Totally different to the banker bonus payouts from bailout funds of course?

    Quote Originally Posted by Erbal View Post
    Jdurand attributes it to racism. - MUH FEELINGS

    Woden attributes it to a collapse of manufacturing jobs. - MUH WELL REASONED FACT-BASED OPINION
    Uhh no, I think JD said there might have been some white flight early on which concentrated blue collar jobs, but it was changes to do with manufacturing competition that caused the massive downsizing.
    Last edited by Rokchick; 07-21-2013 at 03:59 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Evil View Post
    I'm confused. Woden says one thing and jdurand says another. Just when I think I understand a concept, Woden has to come along and say "no, that's not right."

    So did white people leave Detroit in the 50s and 60s and if so was their leaving the city racial motivated? And in the 50s-60s when they left, did they leave the entire Detroit area or did they stay within the region?
    Not so different, I don't think. While the south had mainly an agricultural-based economy, the north had an industrial/manufacturing-based economy. I just wasn't going as far back in history as he was.

    Make no mistake though, the exodus of the white middle class was a direct result of the influx of southern blacks into the urban areas. The white middle class didn't start leaving because there were suddenly better jobs elsewhere (there weren't much in the way of jobs in the suburbs they moved to). They didn't want to live in mixed-race communities. They weren't socially ready for that. In the 1950's and 1960's the jobs (and economy) followed the white middle class out of the Rust Belt urban areas.
    Last edited by jdurand; 07-21-2013 at 04:25 AM.

  21. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdurand View Post
    Make no mistake though, the exodus of the white middle class was a direct result of the influx of southern blacks into the urban areas. The white middle class didn't start leaving because there were suddenly better jobs elsewhere (there weren't much in the way of jobs in the suburbs they moved to). They didn't want to live in mixed-race communities. They weren't socially ready for that. In the 1950's and 1960's the jobs (and economy) followed the white middle class out of the Rust Belt urban areas.
    Jdurand never passes up an opportunity to blame Whitey.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdurand View Post
    Make no mistake though, the exodus of the white middle class was a direct result of the influx of southern blacks into the urban areas. The white middle class didn't start leaving because there were suddenly better jobs elsewhere (there weren't much in the way of jobs in the suburbs they moved to). They didn't want to live in mixed-race communities. They weren't socially ready for that.
    I don't disagree with this, but I think it contributed far, far less than the collapse of American manufacturing. Even back before the time period you are talking about, rust belt economies were heavily focused on manufacturing (and metal refining as well, which was also hit by the same problems as manufacturing); the cities in the area had their economies gutted by the outsourcing of manufacturing.

    Quote Originally Posted by jdurand View Post
    In the 1950's and 1960's the jobs (and economy) followed the white middle class out of the Rust Belt urban areas.
    Unless you are suggesting that the white middle class moved out of the country, then I think you are mistaken; the rust belt economic collapse was (and is) more tied to outsourcing than anything else.

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    you are confusing outsourcing with offshoring
    it is not a minor difference

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woden View Post
    Unless you are suggesting that the white middle class moved out of the country, then I think you are mistaken; the rust belt economic collapse was (and is) more tied to outsourcing than anything else.
    But that didn't happen in huge numbers until the 70's and 80's as the quality of US manufactured goods couldn't keep up with foreign manufacturing. You can trace the start of the decline of Detroit to the start of the middle class moving out of Detroit proper, to the suburbs in the 50's and 60's (same with pretty much every major northern city). You can trace that to the migration of southern blacks north (hence the term "white flight").

    It had far less to do with jobs than fear of changing demographics.
    Last edited by jdurand; 07-21-2013 at 05:34 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
    you are confusing outsourcing with offshoring
    it is not a minor difference
    They way I've always been taught the terms is that offshoring only refers to company practices, and involves relocating parts of the company to foreign countries (e.g., telephone helpdesks located in India, or a company-owned manufacturing plant in China). Outsourcing, by contrast, refers to receiving goods or services from someone else; in regards to a business, it means buying parts or subcontracting work from a different company, but in regards to an economy, it means getting goods or services from a different economy (usually a different country).

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by jdurand View Post
    But that didn't happen in huge numbers until the 70's and 80's as the quality of US manufactured goods couldn't keep up with foreign manufacturing.
    I've seen sources citing the 60's as the starting point, and claiming that cost was the determining factor, not quality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woden View Post
    I've seen sources citing the 60's as the starting point, and claiming that cost was the determining factor, not quality.
    I'm primarily talking about the driving motivation of the white middle class out of urban areas into the suburbs in places like Detroit (well, specifically Detroit in this conversation). Despite Erbal's inability to contain his desire to troll, this is a well documented phenomenon.

    What started driving the white middle class out of the northern rust belt cities beginning in the 50's was the migration of blacks from the south.

    EDIT: all of this branch of the conversation started with cofc's misuse of the term "white flight"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Evil View Post



    It's odd that most people dismiss the idea of vibrational energy on a spiritual level yet all feel it. Try to explain it though and people put their fingers in their ears and hit themselves on the head with a bible while yelling "burn the witch".



    Bulldoze it and use it for farmland.



    He's not Baron. I would have sniffed him out by now if it were. Even he can't pull off a new persona that long. And he wasn't an enjoyable jerk. He was just an ******* and I'm glad he's forum dead.
    Returning city to farmland would be an interesting exercise...I wonder how contaminated the soil is from the materials that were used.


    And frankly, I have always liked Baron and I for one miss him.
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  28. #108

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    It'd be kind of pointless. The land area is minimal, compared to the amount of farmland in the US, and it'd be really expensive.
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  29. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdurand View Post
    I'm primarily talking about the driving motivation of the white middle class out of urban areas into the suburbs in places like Detroit (well, specifically Detroit in this conversation).

    What started driving the white middle class out of the northern rust belt cities beginning in the 50's was the migration of blacks from the south.
    Detroit had a pretty serious race riot in '43.
    They also had an even worse riot in '67, but that wasn't a race riot.

    I'd move the **** outta there and I'm black.
    Excuse me for disagreeing that your degeneracy is sacred.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tunaman43 View Post
    It'd be kind of pointless. The land area is minimal, compared to the amount of farmland in the US, and it'd be really expensive.
    The real benefit of returning it to farm land is not in the land itself, though we do tend to pave over the best farmland with our cities and suburbs, but the removal of the blighted buildings.
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  31. #111

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    Yes, we can use the money we normally use to fund education! Or maybe welfare.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flossie Schmumpus View Post
    The real benefit of returning it to farm land is not in the land itself, though we do tend to pave over the best farmland with our cities and suburbs, but the removal of the blighted buildings.
    You want to turn this


    into this, mainly because the buildings are an eyesore?


    That's pretty much impossible. Besides, farmland is an eyesore compared to nature.
    Excuse me for disagreeing that your degeneracy is sacred.

  33. #113
    Consul Rokchick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erbal View Post

    Besides, farmland is an eyesore compared to nature.
    What? Do you mean un-cleared wilderness? Probably is to some. Can't feed too many though.

  34. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokchick View Post
    What? Do you mean un-cleared wilderness? Probably is to some. Can't feed too many though.
    This country has an epidemic of obesity AND malnutrition. We can feed everyone, we just can't do it properly.
    Excuse me for disagreeing that your degeneracy is sacred.

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    they would need a lot of money to demo those buildings and clean up the debris

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    There has to be a better, cheaper option though. Knock the dangerous ones down and turn the rest into something more useful for "The New Detroit"

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    Firstly to answer the question about why Detroit is the "only" city that is bankrupt... it isn't.

    Can cowboys help avert a cash crisis in Pennsylvania?

    It is a heck of a lot of places.

    P.S. the mayor that was running the place for all those years was a Republican.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flossie Schmumpus View Post
    Returning city to farmland would be an interesting exercise...I wonder how contaminated the soil is from the materials that were used.
    They've been doing that quite a bit in the UK in the old coal mining towns. It costs a fortune, but it is well worth it (in my opinion) to have decent drinking water, liveable areas and so on and so forth.

    I would expect that just tearing down a few buildings and making green pastures out of it would be rather less expensive than clearing up all the toxicity that came with coal mining.

    Besides anything else though... it would be damn cool to show before and after pictures. Kind of reverse industrialisation.

  38. #118

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    I'm not going to provide the link for where I found this quote as the site is littered with spankable things. I went out in search of a better understanding about the discussion jdurand and Woden are having. It offers another look at white flight/consumerism/lose of manufacturing in the decay of cities.

    While I’m not letting the black community of Detroit, or other ruined American cities, off the hook by any means, I have to submit that Detroit and our other major cities were well on their way down the chute before they were finally so depopulated and economically destroyed, that they were Municipal Scorched Earth, to be inherited by the losers at the bottom, the last people in the world who could hope to rebuild them and restore their shredded economies or generate new industries and businesses. I never heard of a city that could be supported by the poorest and dumbest part of the population, which was about all that was left in Detroit and other American cities by 1975, outside of small populations of the educated middle class who thought they saw opportunity in the rapidly falling property values and who couldn’t quite bear to give up on the beautiful places that had nurtured 4 generations or more of their families and were so rich in cultural and educational institutions, and where life was still so convenient.

    That would be, oh, about 1967, by my recollection, when my mother and the parents of almost every one of my classmates was making plans to move to “the county” or “the ‘burbs”.

    What you must understand is that the seeds of their decline, and that of this country, were planted in the postwar era, 1945-1965, and they bore fruit very quickly.

    You must also understand that during the 40s, 50s, and 60s, cities like Detroit, St. Louis, Chicago, NYC, Camden, Cleveland, Cincinnati, and to a large extent, even Memphis and other southern burgs, were totally controlled by the Mob, whose owned politicians assisted them in looting these cities down to the bone. By 1960, businesses that did not want to play footsie with the Mob and its unions were fleeing. St. Louis, for example, was more corrupt than Chicago even, with a mayor (Tucker) during the 50s who was notoriously friendly with the mob and a later mayor, Cervantes, who destroyed everything he touched and finished the job of looting the place, leaving it with a school system that can’t even get basic accreditation, and a fire dept. so deficient that every property in the city had to get MO Fair Plan insurance, the state-subsidized insurance program for property the private insurers won’t touch.

    Detroit was on the skids a long time before the race riots of 1968 triggered the greatest wave of white flight, while the automakers were busy looking to offshore their manufacturing, and Japanese automakers were making great inroads into the domestic auto market. That was another one of the structural problems that set Detroit up for a steep decline long before it became manifest in the massive disinvestment that occurred there and in other cities during the post-war period, which was its “one horse town” status, being totally dependent on one industry.

    In the meantime, our government policy makers of both parties, though chiefly Democrat, laid the foundations of the epic expansion of suburban sprawl, and the dependence of Americans on debt to buy evermore suburban crapboxes built to last one generation, ever further from city centers, while stately buildings in the city, built 1880-1935, of great beauty, that could easily be made to last for two centuries or more, were left to the mercies of vandals and arsonists.

    Never in the history of the world were so many truly great cities built so quickly, and then trashed even more quickly. It took perhaps 50 years to build these places, and not quite 50 to completely destroy tem. While it is easy to blame a population of people lacking intelligence, education, money or culture for the destruction, they are not the people who set it in motion. It was our leadership that decided that the best way to make money was to steer the population on the path of wasteful consumption and a perpetual hankering for the “new”. By 1950, the “throwaway” economy was in full swing- nobody believed in preserving or rebuilding- waste was so much better for the economy. Why restore an elegant old building in a congested neighborhood with NO PARKING, when you could build a McCrapbox made of ticky-tacky in some bedroom suburb 25 miles from anything, and have a place to park 4 cars plus a boat. The more fuel you consumed, the better. The faster you bought and sold houses, moving to something bigger and presumably better each step, the better.

    At the same time, geniuses like Robert Moses, that great destroyer of cities, decided that the best way to deal with the bottom 10% of the population was to package them up neatly in concrete high rise buildings, and plant them in the middle of areas safely out of the way. If Moses had been able to get his way completely, every traditional urban nabe in the country would have been leveled for a highway, and every city would be filled with nothing but Soviet Socialist Realist style apartment blocks in which each family was assigned an apartment with no consideration for family or neighborly connections, or how people actually need to live. Moses’ ideas were implemented by the sweeping ham fist of the federal government, using billions of taxpayers’ dollars while the FHA busily redlined every good, intact urban neighborhood while making 5% down loans available for little crapbox 3 bed 1 bath houses in the new suburbs. My parents bought such a place with a 0% down VA loan, which would not have been available for an existing home in the city.

    Within 20 years or less, the American landscape will be littered not only by the crumbling remains of our great cities, but by the sticks and scrap that used to be all the crap suburbs built 1950 through the present. Nobody will want ti live in these places, anymore than they want to live in W Philly or E St Louis or Chicago’s Wild 100s or North St Louis. And we will realize that we no longer have the resources to waste, to build yet more layers of crap meant to be abandoned in 30 years.

    We are reaping what we’ve all sown for the past 65 years- the results of all the socialist ideas that were written into policy in the 50s and 60s; the unspeakable corruption of the era, and the throwaway ethos born of incredible affluence that was the result not only of our “enterprise” and “creativity”, but of the fantastic endowment of natural resources in a country with vast land and resources and a relatively small population. We thought we had unlimited wealth to waste, and waste it we surely did. Now, we can spend the next 50 years fighting over the leavings.
    I think it's well written and covers things both JD and Woden talked about and adds more perspective on it.

  39. #119

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    Detroit is just the biggest city to go bankrupt.

    But the US federal government was the biggest government to go bankrupt.
    Excuse me for disagreeing that your degeneracy is sacred.

  40. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erbal View Post
    You want to turn this


    into this, mainly because the buildings are an eyesore?


    That's pretty much impossible. Besides, farmland is an eyesore compared to nature.
    Erbal, I was talking about blighted buildings...you know, abandoned hazardous rickety dangerous attractive nuisances? Not viable functioning buildings in viable functioning neighborhoods.

    Many older buildings have asbestos and lead paint in them. The removal of those hazards could become cost prohibitive, it is not just a matter of bulldozing them, loading the debris up on a dumpster and hauling it off.




    BTW, the farmland looks way better than the cityscape, but then I am not a city person.
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