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Thread: What say you?

  1. #1

    Flossie Schmumpus's Avatar
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    Default What say you?

    Ran across this and wonder what you fellas think.

    https://medium.com/human-parts/a-gen...e-7fc86c50dc4c
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  2. #2

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    You are a traitor. Do not act like you don't know. You've seen the comment.
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    *Sigh*, I'm such an idiot.
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    I'm not very bright.

  3. #3

    Flossie Schmumpus's Avatar
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    Naturally once again color me lost.
    Note:Any posts made by this poster should always be construed in the most innocent angelic way possible. The poster is not responsible for where your depraved minds go, if you have a depraved mind.

    Our Lady of Croppers ~Semper DOS~ ~Viva Toons~ || This area intentionally left blank. || The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity ~ Harlan Ellison

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    Consul The Burninator's Avatar
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    I want to correct the article, but I'm a man, and it is noted that men can correct men and so if I correct it I'll be perpetuating **** culture. But my inner pedant is all like NOOOOOOO.

    Anyway, carry on.

  5. #5

    Flossie Schmumpus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Burninator View Post
    I want to correct the article, but I'm a man, and it is noted that men can correct men and so if I correct it I'll be perpetuating **** culture. But my inner pedant is all like NOOOOOOO.

    Anyway, carry on.
    Burn, I am very very interested in what you want to correct. I posted it here to get the opinion of guys.
    Note:Any posts made by this poster should always be construed in the most innocent angelic way possible. The poster is not responsible for where your depraved minds go, if you have a depraved mind.

    Our Lady of Croppers ~Semper DOS~ ~Viva Toons~ || This area intentionally left blank. || The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity ~ Harlan Ellison

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    You are so naive. Human is as color does. Color is human.
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    *Sigh*, I'm such an idiot.
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    I'm not very bright.

  7. #7

    Flossie Schmumpus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapient View Post
    You are so naive. Human is as color does. Color is human.
    Yeah, yeah, so what else is new? Now comment on the link, plague me no more with this folderol.
    Note:Any posts made by this poster should always be construed in the most innocent angelic way possible. The poster is not responsible for where your depraved minds go, if you have a depraved mind.

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    Senator Cisalpine's Avatar
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    This is why all women should eat as much chocolate as they want.

    Seriously though...this is why I have my friends Colt, Beretta, Smith, Wesson and Winchester always within. If they aren't around, I have a hot pink flashlight/stun gun that delivers 15,000,000 volts.

  9. #9

    Flossie Schmumpus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cisalpine View Post
    This is why all women should eat as much chocolate as they want.

    Seriously though...this is why I have my friends Colt, Beretta, Smith, Wesson and Winchester always within. If they aren't around, I have a hot pink flashlight/stun gun that delivers 15,000,000 volts.
    Who is this cretin that stops women from eating chocolate?


    I was thinking about it and I realized, hiking in bear country, I am still more worried about who else might be on the trail.
    Note:Any posts made by this poster should always be construed in the most innocent angelic way possible. The poster is not responsible for where your depraved minds go, if you have a depraved mind.

    Our Lady of Croppers ~Semper DOS~ ~Viva Toons~ || This area intentionally left blank. || The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity ~ Harlan Ellison

  10. #10

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    The positive side, as chocolate makes you fatter, no one will **** you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mod Dark Tower View Post
    *Sigh*, I'm such an idiot.
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    I'm not very bright.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flossie Schmumpus View Post
    Naturally once again color me lost.
    I assume he's referring to Facebook.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cisalpine View Post
    This is why all women should eat as much chocolate as they want.

    Seriously though...this is why I have my friends Colt, Beretta, Smith, Wesson and Winchester always within. If they aren't around, I have a hot pink flashlight/stun gun that delivers 15,000,000 volts.
    Whilst I will never understand how objectified weapons are in the US or how they got that way, I still believe it to be sad that you feel the need to carry them at least partially for the reasoning in the article.
    In response to the article, I am the least threatening person I know walking on the streets. I will however ask and ensure my female friends have a safe way home from large nights (partially to make sure no one drink drives and partially because no one knows who is on the street or what might happen. A drunken stumble in the gutter leading to a rolled ankle for instance. I wouldn't trust anyone to walk several kilometres along a highway regardless of gender).
    Overall, I feel the largest point is to stand up for yourself and what your personal beliefs are. Don't let others take a lower moral ground than you. This can be applied to everything one does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonothan Crane
    Patients suffering delusional episodes often focus their paranoia on an external tormentor. Usually one conforming to Jungian archetypes. In this case, a scarecrow.

  12. #12

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    they say there are two kinds of people in the world, those that divide the world into two kinds of people and those that don't. so merely for the chance to provide an insight, in the world there are grownups and children. if you are completely at sea, you are a child. if you are absolutely certain you are all grown up, you are also a child. if you are not sure, then you might be grown up. most likely you still have some growing up to do, but so do we all.

    the guy's post is pretty good. if you have an issue with it, remember you probably aren't grown up yet.
    "Yeah, I usually get my hammer chiefed. It's my signature move."

    "Between the idea and the reality, falls the forum."

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelman View Post
    the guy's post is pretty good. if you have an issue with it, remember you probably aren't grown up yet.
    That is arrogant, you can be in agreement, or you are a child.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mod Dark Tower View Post
    *Sigh*, I'm such an idiot.
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    I'm not very bright.

  14. #14
    Consul Rokchick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapient View Post
    That is arrogant, you can be in agreement, or you are a child.
    Or.. you could just dismantle what it is that you have an issue with like a grown-up and not do the childish thing?
    I'm glad I'm not judgemental like all you smug, superficial idiots

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    Senator Cisalpine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapient View Post
    The positive side, as chocolate makes you fatter, no one will **** you.
    Exactly. Or at least that's what I meant. There is still that certain factor that likes 'em fatter though. Still limits the field though.

    I can honestly say I don't think/worry about it ALL the time. It's not my first thought when passing a man. Only if the man is acting shifty or weird.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokchick View Post
    Or.. you could just dismantle what it is that you have an issue with like a grown-up and not do the childish thing?
    Feminists' Mantle, be 1974 or, excommunicate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cisalpine View Post
    Exactly. Or at least that's what I meant. There is still that certain factor that likes 'em fatter though. Still limits the field though.

    I can honestly say I don't think/worry about it ALL the time. It's not my first thought when passing a man. Only if the man is acting shifty or weird.
    To win the race or, will the scooter's power die, from their giant weight?
    Last edited by Sapient; 05-30-2015 at 01:33 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mod Dark Tower View Post
    *Sigh*, I'm such an idiot.
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    I'm not very bright.

  17. #17
    Consul The Burninator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flossie Schmumpus View Post
    Burn, I am very very interested in what you want to correct. I posted it here to get the opinion of guys.
    Mostly the flood of unnecessary profanity. But in all seriousness,
    How are you part of **** culture? Well, I hate to say it, but it’s because you’re a man.
    But your entire article is about how you (the author) actively fight **** culture and avoid being a part of it. (Eg, it continues...)
    When I cross a parking lot at night and see a woman ahead of me, I do whatever I feel is appropriate to make her aware of me so that a) I don’t startle her b) she has time to make herself feel safe/comfortable and c) if it’s possible, I can approach in a way that’s clearly friendly, in order to let her know I’m not a threat. I do this because I’m a man.
    In any case, this is entirely unnecessary. For one thing, replace every instance of him referring to himself ("man") with "black person" and every instance of the victim class ("woman") with "white person," and you should see why taking this kind of step is eyebrow-raising. On the one hand, there is a problem that is ****, and on the other, there is a problem that is a classic constructivist dilemma. (See footnote 1.) The author is right to make some attempt to act like a good person by treating others with respect, but, his methods, uh, need some work.
    That’s why I go out of my way to use clear body language and act in a way that helps minimize a woman’s fear and any related feelings. I recommend you do the same. It’s seriously, like, the least any man can do in public to make women feel more comfortable in the world we share. Just be considerate of her and her space.
    Umm, ok. This is better. Why? Replace "woman" with "person," and you've got a good guide to like... how to be a generally considerate person. That is to say: yes, you should, as a good person, take the comfort of all other persons in your vicinity into account when you decide how to act.
    You may think it’s unfair that we have to counteract and adjust ourselves for the ill behavior of other men. You know what? You’re right. It is unfair. Is that the fault of women? Or is it the fault of the men who act abysmally and make the rest of us look bad? If issues of fairness bother you, get mad at the men who make you and your actions appear questionable.
    Um, what? So, the author is making a claim here about causation. That claim is both highly questionable and 200% citation needed. It's entirely unclear that the actions of "the men" have an effect I'd label "making my actions appear questionable."
    If you think that sort of stereotyping is bull****, how do you treat a snake you come across in the wild?

    …You treat it like a snake, right? Well, that’s not stereotyping, that’s acknowledging an animal for what it’s capable of doing and the harm it can inflict. Simple rules of the jungle, man. Since you are a man, women must treat you as such.
    This is the worst line in the article. If I see a snake, I treat it like I treat all other non-intelligent species. For one thing, as a somewhat informed individual, I am well aware that the only snakes that are anywhere near my house are garter snakes. I've dealt with several in the garden before. The thing about snakes is that there isn't a time when all I know is "it's a snake." There are always colors, I always know where I am in the world, etc... and these modify the conditional probabilities that ground decisionmaking. People are no different. If I walk down the street and my action frightens a woman who is using this kind of logic, then I'm very sorry, but she's just not using her eyes.

    Keep in mind, this is coming from TB -- I have, at various points outside this thread -- defended a version of feminism against attacks by Woden and others who think that feminism is outdated or corrupted today. (See footnote 2.) This is not the kind of feminism that makes sense.
    No woman should feel she has to explain **** culture to me just because I want to know what it is. No woman owes me ****. I saw how my desire for a woman to satisfy me ran deep.
    B doesn't follow from A. Your desire for individual X to satisfy your every desire comes from the capitalist culture in which you live. If you think women feel any differently, you're mistaken.
    Here’s a bullet-point list of examples of **** culture.
    This is much better, but totally unrelated to the poor attempts at personal anecdotes given earlier.
    Let’s say, you’re in a group of men, and one of your friends starts hollering at a girl — tell him to knock it the **** off. You won’t be a punk for speaking up for the woman. As long as you don’t try to score points with her for “defending her,” you won’t be white-knighting it either. You’re just doing the right thing.
    This here's a head scratcher. The previous pieces of advice made a lot of sense. But the females I hang out with, typically, don't need me to help them punch some guy in the face.

    Overall points -- the author's concrete lists aren't bad, but his personal anecdotes and analyses are awful, and his pieces of advice aren't self-reflective enough. It reads like he has been convinced to feel that some wrong has been done by society to women in general, and that this should bleed into the way he acts towards individual women.

    Feminism, in the past, wasn't about that. Nor should it be today. There are, in society, certain things that are simply truly unfair in the way that men and women are treated differently. Feminism should be about taking that kind of systemic problem, and using education as a means to create the impetus for social change and structural change, not about modulating my individual actions. Take **** in the military -- an absurd number of women in our military are sexually abused, and the systems in place to investigate and punish offenders are laughable. That's something there needs to be awareness about, and awareness about that will lead to change. Eating disorders disproportionately affect women, and psychological studies suggest that this is related to their consistent objectification in mass advertising and in other places. Awareness about that can lead us to pressure industries to sell products without the use of womens' bodies to do so. That's social action on a mass scale to attack a problem that is, actually, on a mass scale. Tread carefully when I see a woman in a parking lot? What in the world is that?

    Footnotes:
    1) A constructivist dilemma is something like the following -- an alien spaceship lands in Kansas and a few aliens step out. Now, the humans of earth surround them with military personnel out of precaution. They're isolated and questioned before being allowed to travel, and when they travel, they're tailed. In another situation, the alien spaceship lands in Kansas and a few aliens step out, but the humans of earth treat this as basically a normal occurrence. The government displays an interest, but does not detain them, does not tail them, etc. The constructivist position (which I adopt) is that how the people of Earth react to the landing of the spaceship will actually determine how the aliens treat the humans. If they were initially detained, they will assume that Earth is full of suspicious or backstabbing characters and be more likely to engage in that kind of behavior. If they were initially treated quite peacefully, they will be more likely to act quite peacefully. This relates quite well to the situation in the article -- the author is suggesting that men treat women like women should rationally fear men. QED, this makes women more likely to actually fear men. Rather than move to solve the problem, this worsens it.
    2) Most notably, here.
    Last edited by The Burninator; 05-30-2015 at 02:51 AM.

  18. #18

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    I hate men like that, he's submitting to women, it should be reverse!
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    *Sigh*, I'm such an idiot.
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    I'm not very bright.

  19. #19

    Scarecrow's Avatar
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    I can't rep Burn for that post so I'll just say Burn for president.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonothan Crane
    Patients suffering delusional episodes often focus their paranoia on an external tormentor. Usually one conforming to Jungian archetypes. In this case, a scarecrow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Burninator View Post
    Keep in mind, this is coming from TB -- I have, at various points outside this thread -- defended a version of feminism against attacks by Woden and others who think that feminism is outdated or corrupted today. (See footnote 2.) This is not the kind of feminism that makes sense.
    Keep in mind as well that the things like the topic article are a large part of what I disagree with about modern feminism -- namely, the massive amount of anti-male sexism, ridiculously over-the-top demands for consideration of ludicrously irrational fears, downright silly generalizations (e.g., paraphrased: "no men know fear just walking down the street, but all women do". What about all the men who go through bad parts of town, or the women who state that they are not automatically afraid just because they see a stranger on the street?), and the frequent back-and-forth twists of definitions to make words fit their arguments (e.g., "All men are part of **** culture" at the start of the article being justified with a vague handwave towards men being the majority perpetrator of reported rapes, while later in the article, quoting an actual definition which emphasizes **** prevalence and **** apologetics -- and therefore disagreeing with his "all men are part of **** culture" claims earlier in the article).

    FFS, the guy even equates intellectual curiosity with a ****-like mindset:
    Even my curiosity, a trait that always made me proud, was marred with the same sort of male-centric presumption that fuels **** culture. I expected to be satisfied. That attitude is the problem.
    (As a response to the above quote: No, it is not at all ****-like to request that someone explain what they mean when they use a term you are unfamiliar with. It's a basic ****ing component of communication.)

    It's just so infuriatingly idiotic and half-baked, and while not all-encompassing within the feminist movement, it's definitely getting to be very pervasive, particularly amongst the feminist activists who stick their noses into other movements and groups.

    (Another part that I repeatedly complain about is bad statistics getting trumpeted about, which seems like it's often a result of certain individuals thinking that their Women's Studies degree or similar qualifies them to perform statistical research despite never having taken any classes in statistics, and/or of the authors of non-peer-reviewed studies allowing their biases to run rampant.)
    Last edited by Woden; 05-30-2015 at 04:41 AM.

  21. #21
    Consul Rokchick's Avatar
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    Burn, all that is well and good, but you miss the main point. Women DO feel threatened by men. And it is NOT without reason. It might not be entirely logical to infer that a particular you, a man, deserve to be tagged with "threatening", but in the scheme of shark protection, you will be. Until the culture changes. The change is what the article is about. I don't want to assume every man is potentially dangerous. I also would not let my niece walk alone in a male dominated area at night wearing a short skirt. Her rights, or theirs? The reality of most womens lives is that they have at some time had a reason to fear men/a man because of the way society treats the issue. I don't carry a gun to protect myself, but I do curtail my activities somewhat and stay alert. As do we all.

    I would imagine that a group of guys wearing republican badges and carrying a cosh in a known gay hangout a few years ago would instill fear in many too. That is not to say that Republicans are all gay-bashers, but that if you were gay, it wouldn't be unreasonable to be worried. If you were carrying a cosh in such a group, it would be reasonable for you to point out why you WERE there, or wear a pro-gay badge as well, rather than have everyone running for cover or feeling terrified. Why is that so unreasonable? Your arguments against his lean towards the "if you are gay, hide it" side rather than the "if you are a republican, make sure people know you aren't a gay-basher".

    PS, my use of "republican" is badge generic. Insert any other recognizable group that might be more likely to have not been supportive of gay rights a few years ago. Hell, now for all I know.

    Sap, you can cry all you like. But I know you are really just crying out for a strong woman to whip you into line. I do like the "not ****-able" reference though. It saves me the trouble of pointing that sicko statement out. Makes me want to slap you though, because Cis probably thinks you mean it literally.

    Woden, did you deliberately miss all his "men too" references, or is the urge to bash feminism in any form so great that you have to twist everything to fit?
    I'm glad I'm not judgemental like all you smug, superficial idiots

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    Senator cheddar's Avatar
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    There were definitely things that bugged me about the article. I'll try to break it down somewhat sequentially.

    First off, I very much dislike his use of the word vulnerable. As a culture, we need to stop demeaning the act of being vulnerable. Vulnerability is not a bad thing and should not be used synonymously with fear. If he is going to use the term he should clarify that it is fear due to possible physical vulnerability, but he doesn't even use the term that way. And I would argue isn't even true in every situation - as he wants to assume - anyway.

    It also doesn't make sense to me that he creates an entire article about **** culture but waits until he's already halfway through the article to give a proper definition to the term. That's just a bad way to write a paper, article, blog, whatever. Define any terms you think you need to immediately so we, the readers, can have a reference to use for the rest of what you have to say. It also serves to keep you in check for how you use the term.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaron
    If you think that sort of stereotyping is bull****, how do you treat a snake you come across in the wild?

    …You treat it like a snake, right? Well, that’s not stereotyping, that’s acknowledging an animal for what it’s capable of doing and the harm it can inflict. Simple rules of the jungle, man. Since you are a man, women must treat you as such.
    Degrading men to the status of "animal" and saying that all women view us as such bugged me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaron
    Rather than focus on how women can avoid ****, or how **** culture makes an innocent man feel suspect, our focus should be: how do we, as men, stop rapes from occurring, and how do we dismantle the structures that dismiss it and change the attitudes that tolerate it?
    Just because we should be trying to prevent **** doesn't mean women knowing how to avoid it isn't equally helpful.


    His little epiphany that he had outside a carwash (and why was this relevant to mention?) made no sense either. Being curious about something on an intellectual level is absolutely nothing like desiring to be pleased, sexually or not. I mean, his point about expecting to be pleased by women makes sense, but the way he got there was completely wack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaron
    You’ll quickly find that **** culture plays a central role in all the social dynamics of our time.
    And this... just... what? Seriously? Emphasis added on what makes this a ridiculous statement.


    Towards the end of it he started guilt tripping which didn't amuse me.

    Oh and this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaron
    Some of the things you inherit from society are cool and some of them are **** culture.
    I had to stop and collect myself so I could keep reading after laughing at this for a couple of minutes.

    Looking at the post as a whole, his general point of being more aware of others' comfort is a good one. We do need to be more aware of our surroundings as males. He could've done a much better job of making his point, though, and needs to work on a) how to write a good argument and b) his extremism on the issue.
    Last edited by cheddar; 05-30-2015 at 05:50 AM.
    Live Life, Love Others.

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    Cheddar is one of the popular, energetic guys.
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  23. #23

    Flossie Schmumpus's Avatar
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    I want to thank those of you who took the time and read it and comment on it. I am really interested in how you males perceived the article and your thoughts.

    @Rokchick, you have missed the main point. The main point was how did the men of this forum react to this article.
    Note:Any posts made by this poster should always be construed in the most innocent angelic way possible. The poster is not responsible for where your depraved minds go, if you have a depraved mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flossie Schmumpus View Post
    @Rokchick, you have missed the main point. The main point was how did the men of this forum react to this article.
    Of course she did. She seems to think everything's all about her.

    Now, as the person who dug up this link and asked others for their take on it: What's your view on the article?

  25. #25

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    The author makes a valid argument, like it or not a single guy no matter how well groomed or well mannered will still be seemingly suspicious in certain scenarios.

    I realized this in college, at night after late night studies in the library, I had my book bag and I was well dressed and well mannered, yet it hit me when it seemed that some fellow women students would walk faster or otherwise afraid of me. Of course it's hard to be thought of as something to be afraid of, I felt they had nothing to fear from me, I had no criminal record nor the intebt, yet I felt treated with suspicion. Our college also had these security escorts ran by the university for students to use to escourt them home at any hour. It was open to all students, but only women used them.

    It is what it is, men who are alone or in a group of just men who are not gay are treated with suspicion.

  26. #26
    Senator cheddar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summer View Post
    The author makes a valid argument, like it or not a single guy no matter how well groomed or well mannered will still be seemingly suspicious in certain scenarios.
    Agreed. In certain scenarios. However, he could have made his argument much better. He also could have toned down the extremes, but the more I think about it the more I feel he may have written it that way just to make sure he could slap you as hard as he could across the face with his point.
    Live Life, Love Others.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeLink View Post
    Cheddar is one of the popular, energetic guys.
    "A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an insult." - Proverbs 12:16

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    Quote Originally Posted by cheddar View Post
    Agreed. In certain scenarios. However, he could have made his argument much better. He also could have toned down the extremes, but the more I think about it the more I feel he may have written it that way just to make sure he could slap you as hard as he could across the face with his point.
    I don't argee with his advice, which one piece was: try to approach a woman in a non threating way... or along those lines. I think that is bad advice. I'd just go on my normal routine eventually if someone is intimidated they'll quickly avoid the one that is intimidating. And voila, carry on.

  28. #28

    Flossie Schmumpus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woden View Post

    Now, as the person who dug up this link and asked others for their take on it: What's your view on the article?
    Parts of it resonated, and other parts were just a bit too goody two shoes. I am still trying to figure out how he thinks he can make women in a dark parking lot feel more comfortable by changing his body language...like why did he have
    'threatening' body language in the first place? Him saying guys can speak up and change the group dynamics, I nodded my head to that...a peer telling you something is not okay holds more water than someone you do not consider a peer in that situation or a random stranger.

    A part of me suspects he wrote the article the way he did to score brownie points with someone.

    Am I in constant fear of being raped, no, do I sometimes worry about it in some places? Yeah. But if I am really honest it is more a realization that I perhaps am a viable target to be mugged.
    Note:Any posts made by this poster should always be construed in the most innocent angelic way possible. The poster is not responsible for where your depraved minds go, if you have a depraved mind.

    Our Lady of Croppers ~Semper DOS~ ~Viva Toons~ || This area intentionally left blank. || The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity ~ Harlan Ellison

  29. #29
    Consul The Burninator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokchick View Post
    Burn, all that is well and good, but you miss the main point. Women DO feel threatened by men. And it is NOT without reason. It might not be entirely logical to infer that a particular you, a man, deserve to be tagged with "threatening", but in the scheme of shark protection, you will be. Until the culture changes. The change is what the article is about. I don't want to assume every man is potentially dangerous. I also would not let my niece walk alone in a male dominated area at night wearing a short skirt. Her rights, or theirs? The reality of most womens lives is that they have at some time had a reason to fear men/a man because of the way society treats the issue. I don't carry a gun to protect myself, but I do curtail my activities somewhat and stay alert. As do we all.
    I don't dispute this, but I do dispute his pieces of advice about how to change it. (I'm not denying that this happens, but I am pointing out that there are cases where it is irrational, and that there are ways to deal with this on the level of mass culture without making absurd suggestions about things I should do as an individual that haven't any bearing on anything. I think the replacement of "women" with "white people" and "men" with "scary black men" should show you why it's questionable.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Rokchick View Post
    I would imagine that a group of guys wearing republican badges and carrying a cosh in a known gay hangout a few years ago would instill fear in many too. That is not to say that Republicans are all gay-bashers, but that if you were gay, it wouldn't be unreasonable to be worried. If you were carrying a cosh in such a group, it would be reasonable for you to point out why you WERE there, or wear a pro-gay badge as well, rather than have everyone running for cover or feeling terrified. Why is that so unreasonable? Your arguments against his lean towards the "if you are gay, hide it" side rather than the "if you are a republican, make sure people know you aren't a gay-basher".
    No, my argument is more along the lines of "your tactical suggestions for change make literally no sense and place undue onus on those without any moral responsibility, and since there do exist ways to solve the problem on a mass scale that don't have the same absurd consequences, why not use those."

    You're suggesting that I'm suggesting "do nothing." I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying "do something else."

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