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Thread: The Roman Defence Myth

  1. #1

    Lightbulb The Roman Defence Myth

    So, this was brought up in a thread on the Speed-Server forum on another domain and I believe it's a large misconception throughout all Domain's - that Roman defence is the strongest.
    Furthermore, it is also commonly believed that combinations of Spears/Praets or Spears/Paladins etc are superior to 100% Spear or Phalanx mixtures.
    Now, before you call me crazy - I am not going to argue that 1:1 Spears are better than Praetorians at defending against infantry or likewise. No, what I am proving here throughout that Teuton's and Gaul's majorly outweigh Romans in their ability to train defence, and the strength of this defence.


    Let's start with the basic stats for all of the troops. (Note: Training times used are for 3x server with level 20Bararcks, and assume level 20 Smithy upgrades.
    http://prnt.sc/b6p0ez
    In the table Inf Def Cost and Cav Def Cost are calculated from: Total Cost/Inf Def or Total Cost/Cav Def.
    From this we can see that Phalanx and Spear's are the cheapest unit's whilst Druids are arguably the strongest unit.

    However, in reality you can train more spears and phalanx than you can druids, and this is how a player training only Spears or only Phalanxes will fair much better agaisnt any hammer than a player training a mixture of Spears/Paladins, Phalanx/Druids or Legs/Praets. See the table below.
    http://prntscr.com/b6p52w
    In this table, Amount, is the number of unit's you can train in 1day (speed server 3x) with a level 20Barracks/Stable. Attack, Inf Def and Cav Def are the total amount of the respective categories that these amount of troops will give (assuming level 20smithy upgrades.)
    From this, it is clearly visible that Druidriders and Paladins are superior in infantry defence, whilst spears and phalanx dominate the cavalry defence column. However, it's also highly visible how weak the Roman counterparts are in comparison, with Praets giving less infantry defence than Phalanx (and only slightly more than spears) and Legionaires giving less cavalry defence than both Spear's and Phalanx.

    Now, to further elaborate on these figure's, please see below several different combat simulations. In these simulations, ALL units are level 20 in the smithy and no wall is present. (Wall level is irrelevant as the bonuses are constant - yes a Roman wall gives more bonus but if a Teuton is defending the roman they get the bonus to.

    Individual Units
    Hammers used are slightly below Teut/Roman equivalent of 4day training level 20barracks/stable (to make differences more obvious). Defence troops used are equivalent to 10days training in 1village (level 20 barracks/stable)
    Gallic Troops
    Phalanx Only
    Vs Clubs/Tks: http://travian.kirilloid.ru/log2.php...viwCUOAD9FVX8d Phalanx Win, 92.2%losses.
    Vs Imps/EC: http://travian.kirilloid.ru/log2.php...zQc30FwA81EuIG Phalanx Win, 86.0%losses.
    Druidriders Only
    Vs Clubs/Tks: http://travian.kirilloid.ru/log2.php...Y4cIkDoLf892MB Druidrider Loss, 78.1% killed.
    Vs Imps/EC: http://travian.kirilloid.ru/log2.php...Rf0XF8ByJYqXQU Druidrider Loss, 68.2%killed.

    Teutonic Troops
    Spears Only
    Vs Clubs/Tks: http://travian.kirilloid.ru/log2.php...viwCUOAD-iPU4e Spear Win, 94.7%losses.
    Vs Imps/EC: http://travian.kirilloid.ru/log2.php...zQc30FwL8aUKUG Spear Win, 83.1%losses.
    Paladins Only
    Vs Clubs/Tks: http://travian.kirilloid.ru/log2.php...Y4cIkDoHOen1YB Paladin Loss, 67.7%killed.
    Vs Imps/EC: http://travian.kirilloid.ru/log2.php...Rf0XF8ByHY5JQU Paladin Loss, 57.3%killed.

    Roman Troops
    Legionaries Only
    Vs Clubs/Tks: http://travian.kirilloid.ru/log2.php...1x4BIHQM9YlI4C Legionaire Loss, 56.7%killed.
    Vs Imps/EC: http://travian.kirilloid.ru/log2.php...i7oub4CkLfzcAo Legionaire Loss, 61%killed.
    Praetorians Only
    Vs Clubs/Tks: http://travian.kirilloid.ru/log2.php...1x4BIHQP9kNZ0C Praetorian Loss, 61.4%killed
    Vs Imps/EC: http://travian.kirilloid.ru/log2.php...i7oub4CkEnMMAo Praetorian Loss, 54.8%killed.

    As you can see from these simulations, Spears and Phalanx are the only unit's capable of killing these 2 hammers on their own.

    Now for the interesting part, it's widely argued that a combination of Spears/Praet's or similar is the best possible in the game, so let's try it out. [I've given each unit 5days worth of training and kept the hammers the same.)
    Spear/Praet Combo
    Vs Clubs/Tks: http://travian.kirilloid.ru/log2.php...OHCJA4DulpKnBQ Spear/Praet Loss, 82.7%killed.
    Vs Imps/EC: http://travian.kirilloid.ru/log2.php...EX9FxfASCr294W Spear/Praet Loss, 85.9%killed.

    Feel free to run more simulations for yourselves, but in the end you'll find that 1Gaul or Teuton Village producing Phalanx/Spears will always out perform any other defence unit.

    To conclude, I'm not trying to persuade you to not play Roman defence or even to prove to you how strong Spears and Phalanx are, I just wanted to present the information to all to see. In my opinion, I would rather have my PD's training purely spears/phalanx the entire server than ever training Paladins/Druids due to the extreme DefPoints/hr they give in comparison.
    Furthermore, I'm not claiming that Romans can't make a killer defence account and I've seen it done many times, however had that same account been a Gaul or Teut the amount of hammers they could have stopped would have been considerably more. I'm also aware that Romans have the simming advantage due to their double build, however if you're using gold this isn't really an issue.
    Other arguments I guess would be that Roman troops are cheaper to train (yes you read that right, they're cheaper because you make less. http://prntscr.com/b6pufz *Table shows daily training values for 3x server, Level 20Barracks, Level 20 Smithy upgrades.)

    See below what our Teuton PD was able to do in the final days of the inx server (after losing all defence at arti's and having only a 75% 9c on level 17s) [Note: The praets belonged to one other individual, and the outcome of every hit would have been the same had they not been there. -- Adittionally not all of the spears were level 20 (lazy deffer)]
    http://prntscr.com/c1oxrr
    http://prntscr.com/c1oxx5
    http://prntscr.com/c1oy24
    http://prntscr.com/c1oy6n

    Thanks for reading,
    Sam.

  2. #2

    Default

    I'm a big advocate of thinking outside the box so thank you for posting this. Your post has value and while I realize it was focused purely on defense I feel that's where most players go wrong. If we expand the discussion to both a more utilitarian "hamvil" view I think you'll find the Lego to be the premiere defensive unit in Travian. Accept no substitute.

    Full discussion is here:
    http://forum.travian.us/showthread.php?t=128464

  3. #3

    Default

    I'm not sure how much of this is really a myth. Most of this is easily shown on the popular kirilloid troop comparison tool. And at least for the defenders I am used to working with, is common knowledge. For example Druids and pallies aren't built for long term defense, they are built because they move quickly. That makes them invaluable for emergencies, and their infantry defense is useful for splitting cat waves that usually have an infantry escort (if any). I'd always encourage anyone who wants to run an anvil account to choose Gaul, and focus on phalanx. The advantage praets have is upkeep cost, which can be important for long term defense (but just like axes vs clubs, that is an insignificant factor on a 3x server where your feeding costs are essentially 1/3).

    This is of course readily apparent in WW defense, where phalanx are generally the majority of the defense present.
    But yes, if you want to get into real myth discussion, then the biggest surprise for most people is that Legos are better WW defenders than praets (because the natar attacks are tilted towards cavalry offense).
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  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tineren View Post
    the biggest surprise for most people is that Legos are better WW defenders than praets (because the natar attacks are tilted towards cavalry offense).
    I've missed you

  5. #5

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    Us1 restarted LB. Just saying....

  6. #6

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    I'm already there!

  7. #7
    Farmhand Sqwrls's Avatar
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    I wish it was another month or so before US1 started, I would have gone to us1. Guess ill wait till us2 restarts again. I did enjoy the read.
    Always lookin for a Nut, Don't touch My Nuts!!!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tineren View Post
    But yes, if you want to get into real myth discussion, then the biggest surprise for most people is that Legos are better WW defenders than praets (because the natar attacks are tilted towards cavalry offense).
    So spear fighters are still non-existent here?
    I'd take a 100k/100k split of praetors and spear fighters over 300k legionnaires or Phalanxes any day.

    But I see you are taking your numbers by training time, which is a pretty strange assumption to make your case.
    Basically you're staging the results by saying: from now on, you have roughly 5 days to make a hammer and an anvil. With unlimited resources, AND given the fact that the defense is trained in only one village.

    But you forget that you can have a much bigger anvil in the same time as a hammer, because you can train in multiple villages, a hammer you can only train in one village.
    Last edited by Dark Tower; 08-21-2016 at 04:02 PM.

  9. #9

    Default

    Training time is not the main consideration for the praet vs lego argument, base defense is. People often just add up the defense values of praets and legos and say praets are better (65 inf + 35 cav = 100 praet defense is more than 35 inf + 50 cav = 85 Lego defense). The thing is, that's not actually how Travian works. Praets have a defense range between 35 and 65 and legos have a defense range between 35 and 50. What their effective defense is for any given attack is based on the infantry and cavalry portions of the attacking army. A "standard" Roman egh has around 37% infantry offense, and 63% cavalry offense. A level 20 praet facing that attack has an effective defense of 59, while the lego is right behind at 57. Sure spears and phalanx are better at 65 and 60 respectively, but Romans can't exactly build those. kirilloid

    Those are close enough that the build times really come into play. For any given village (and I would generally have at least 10 such villages) I can build either 400 legos or 363 praets per day. Furthermore, it actually costs more to build the smaller number of praets. So during a month of endgame (boy I wish it was that short) I can churn out either 120k legos for 6.8 million defense or 108.9k praets for 6.4 million defense. But that is vs a Roman hammer, Gaul hammers are more balanced and Teuton hammers skew the other way. So overall praets would be better.

    ...But then we look at the natar attacks. Sure they aren't doing any damage, but hey are killing lots of troops. In fact you'll generally lose more defenders overall to the regular natar attacks than you will to the opposing team. The better you can fare vs the natars, the more defense you'll have left for EGHs. And natar offense is massively skewed towards cavalry. Enough that the praets and legos swap positions and now it's 59 effective defense for the lego and only 57 for the praet. kirilloid link
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  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mod Dark Tower View Post
    So spear fighters are still non-existent here?
    I'd take a 100k/100k split of praetors and spear fighters over 300k legionnaires or Phalanxes any day.

    But I see you are taking your numbers by training time, which is a pretty strange assumption to make your case.
    Basically you're staging the results by saying: from now on, you have roughly 5 days to make a hammer and an anvil. With unlimited resources, AND given the fact that the defense is trained in only one village.

    But you forget that you can have a much bigger anvil in the same time as a hammer, because you can train in multiple villages, a hammer you can only train in one village.
    300k legionaires would be a thing of nightmares not dreams.

    No matter how many villages you use, phalanx and spears still give the most def points per day, if you want to mutliply how much villages are being used -- the maths is exactly the same. Praets don't suddenly get better if you train them in more villages.

    Tineren
    I am arguing that roman def sucks as a whole compared to Teuts/Gaul nothing about praets vs lego.
    Training time is the only real factor after about day 10 - since you should be able to run barracks level 20 at about this point. If you look at the spreadsheet attached in the OP you will see the vast difference in def points per day for each tribe.

  11. #11

    Default Robinsons 56333

    Mmmm... For defense, building time is not the major restriction, unless you limit the villages you build defense in. If you opt for a distributed production system (and why not? Smithies generate great cp, and you don't need to worry as much about your whole army going poof if someone does manage to chief a villa), resources become the primary limitation on how many troops you can produce.

    We typically can't keep all our villas with maxed out smithies building troops 24/7.
    That said, I've always maintained that Gauls are the ultimate defensive troop. Phalanx are cheap, effective and useful against any blend of infantry/cavalry.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
    Mmmm... For defense, building time is not the major restriction, unless you limit the villages you build defense in. If you opt for a distributed production system (and why not? Smithies generate great cp, and you don't need to worry as much about your whole army going poof if someone does manage to chief a villa), resources become the primary limitation on how many troops you can produce.

    We typically can't keep all our villas with maxed out smithies building troops 24/7.
    That said, I've always maintained that Gauls are the ultimate defensive troop. Phalanx are cheap, effective and useful against any blend of infantry/cavalry.
    Hi Robinsons, I should have made this more clear in the original post however, these are based on the assumption that you have a decent 15c and are using all these resources to train troops. Provided you have this, you should be more than capable to train defense in EVERY village 24/7 without issue, even with a large trainer if you're so lucky as to be able to acquire one.
    - Unfortunately I don't have the screenshot available right now but those reports at the bottom, the spears come from 1 defender alone - who had between 35-80k spears in every single village.

    Hope this helps,
    Sam

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