Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 62

Thread: What Flossie thinks about Trump

  1. #1

    Flossie Schmumpus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    I apparently exist
    Posts
    11,120

    Default What Flossie thinks about Trump

    I am writing this because certain people seem to be imputing their own ideas about what my opinions are.

    Trump has been on my radar since the early eighties when he came up in a business case study. I have been watching him ever since. My conclusion: Trump is a scurrilous individual without character or conscience, an intemperate bully.


    Because of what he purports to stand for (mind you he can and will change this at the drop of a hat) and the kind of person I have observed him to be, I know I will have to become much more active to stand against his 'ideals.'


    I am a Christian and believe the Bible to be true. I am directed to love my neighbor, for me loving my neighbor includes not only being nice to my neighbors and feeding the homeless, but also standing up for equal rights and protections under the law for everyone. Oppression in any form is wrong.

    tldr:
    Flossie don't like Trump.
    Note:Any posts made by this poster should always be construed in the most innocent angelic way possible. The poster is not responsible for where your depraved minds go, if you have a depraved mind.

    Our Lady of Croppers ~Semper DOS~ ~Viva Toons~ || This area intentionally left blank. || The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity ~ Harlan Ellison

  2. #2
    Consul The Burninator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    The Great Garden State
    Posts
    8,570

    Default

    Hopefully, people who say that the presidency makes the man are more right than I am usually given to believe.

    And people who say that the man makes the presidency are more wrong than I am usually given to believe.

    Nothing for it now but to wait and hope.

    And give time and money to the segments of civil society that stand to suffer.

  3. #3

    Flossie Schmumpus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    I apparently exist
    Posts
    11,120

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Burninator View Post
    Hopefully, people who say that the presidency makes the man are more right than I am usually given to believe.

    And people who say that the man makes the presidency are more wrong than I am usually given to believe.

    Nothing for it now but to wait and hope.

    And give time and money to the segments of civil society that stand to suffer.
    Yeah I hope the office will change him, but I do not hold out any high hopes for that.

    Some of us will have a lot of work to do to ensure he doesn't break our country.
    Note:Any posts made by this poster should always be construed in the most innocent angelic way possible. The poster is not responsible for where your depraved minds go, if you have a depraved mind.

    Our Lady of Croppers ~Semper DOS~ ~Viva Toons~ || This area intentionally left blank. || The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity ~ Harlan Ellison

  4. #4

    Default

    I have a new theory, laugh or scold if you will (just be polite in your responses, please). I think the Republican Party is thrilled to have won the election and control all branches of government. But they aren't thrilled with Trump. They can't control him. Watch for early impeachment. Both sides will vote for this. This still leaves the presidency in Republican hands, but now Pence is running the country.

  5. #5
    Consul The Burninator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    The Great Garden State
    Posts
    8,570

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Flossie Schmumpus View Post
    Some of us will have a lot of work to do to ensure he doesn't break our country.
    Socially and individually.

    To add to what I said last post -- on donating time and energy to civil society groups that will now be under siege -- I seriously reiterate what I was saying in another thread: if you are concerned about the environment, and the EPA being headed by a climate change denialist, seriously consider stopping your consumption of meat and reducing your consumption of all animal products, or reducing your consumption of meat at the least. The US pulling out of the Paris accords is a huge blow to our species' ability to hold climate change to 2 degrees C. This is a limited time issue. It's not like the debt. We can't just wait 4 years then act.

  6. #6
    Philosopher cofc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Back to Oz.
    Posts
    4,246

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Flossie Schmumpus View Post
    I am writing this because certain people seem to be imputing their own ideas about what my opinions are.

    Trump has been on my radar since the early eighties when he came up in a business case study. I have been watching him ever since. My conclusion: Trump is a scurrilous individual without character or conscience, an intemperate bully.


    Because of what he purports to stand for (mind you he can and will change this at the drop of a hat) and the kind of person I have observed him to be, I know I will have to become much more active to stand against his 'ideals.'


    I am a Christian and believe the Bible to be true. I am directed to love my neighbor, for me loving my neighbor includes not only being nice to my neighbors and feeding the homeless, but also standing up for equal rights and protections under the law for everyone. Oppression in any form is wrong.

    tldr:
    Flossie don't like Trump.
    A leftist who dislikes a republican? Now that is rare.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    I have a new theory, laugh or scold if you will (just be polite in your responses, please). I think the Republican Party is thrilled to have won the election and control all branches of government. But they aren't thrilled with Trump. They can't control him.

    Watch for early impeachment. Both sides will vote for this. This still leaves the presidency in Republican hands, but now Pence is running the country.
    They reps should pick up more senate seats in 2018.

    That is some tasty wishcasting right there.

  7. #7

    Flossie Schmumpus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    I apparently exist
    Posts
    11,120

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cofc View Post
    A leftist who dislikes a republican? Now that is rare.

    You presume way too much.
    Note:Any posts made by this poster should always be construed in the most innocent angelic way possible. The poster is not responsible for where your depraved minds go, if you have a depraved mind.

    Our Lady of Croppers ~Semper DOS~ ~Viva Toons~ || This area intentionally left blank. || The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity ~ Harlan Ellison

  8. #8

    Dan Chak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Syracuse, baby!
    Posts
    8,063

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Flossie Schmumpus View Post
    I am writing this because certain people seem to be imputing their own ideas about what my opinions are.

    Trump has been on my radar since the early eighties when he came up in a business case study. I have been watching him ever since. My conclusion: Trump is a scurrilous individual without character or conscience, an intemperate bully.


    Because of what he purports to stand for (mind you he can and will change this at the drop of a hat) and the kind of person I have observed him to be, I know I will have to become much more active to stand against his 'ideals.'


    I am a Christian and believe the Bible to be true. I am directed to love my neighbor, for me loving my neighbor includes not only being nice to my neighbors and feeding the homeless, but also standing up for equal rights and protections under the law for everyone. Oppression in any form is wrong.

    tldr:
    Flossie don't like Trump.
    So what you are saying is you love Trump and voted for him and left all my fellow brothers and sisters of color and varying gender/sexuality twisting in the wind!?
    Ha! Just kidding. I wanted to take a turn at twisting the heck out of something someone else was saying and stand on the soap box.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    I have a new theory, laugh or scold if you will (just be polite in your responses, please). I think the Republican Party is thrilled to have won the election and control all branches of government. But they aren't thrilled with Trump. They can't control him. Watch for early impeachment. Both sides will vote for this. This still leaves the presidency in Republican hands, but now Pence is running the country.
    Mitch McConnell doesn't like him. Trump is not who he would have picked and the more Trump has been talking lately, the more bristle-backed Mitch has been. Trump may see as much trouble getting anything on his wacky list done as Obama did.

    Quote Originally Posted by cofc View Post
    A leftist who dislikes a republican? Now that is rare.



    They reps should pick up more senate seats in 2018.

    That is some tasty wishcasting right there.
    Yeah, Democrats biggest weakness is their over-confidence and tunnel vision. 'Common sense sez that all intelligent people will vote for Hillary, even though no one can stand or trust her... wait, whatchu mean we lost?' I am going back to Independent. At least there I can not be embarrassed to admit what party I am supporting.
    Quote Originally Posted by gebne View Post
    St. Chak, glorious atelier, faithful servant and bearer of thong,
    the stain of the troll has caused you to be forgotten by many,
    but the true forum invokes you universally as the patron of things despised of;
    pray for me, that finally I may receive the alterations and the couture of thongs in all my fripperies, ornamentations, and trimmings,
    particularly those of purple hue, and that I may read Chak with the thong throughout Eternity.

  9. #9

    Flossie Schmumpus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    I apparently exist
    Posts
    11,120

    Default

    This whole thing has been rather enlightening....in the space of something less than 48 hrs I have been accused of being a trumpette and a leftist. I must be doing something right.
    Note:Any posts made by this poster should always be construed in the most innocent angelic way possible. The poster is not responsible for where your depraved minds go, if you have a depraved mind.

    Our Lady of Croppers ~Semper DOS~ ~Viva Toons~ || This area intentionally left blank. || The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity ~ Harlan Ellison

  10. #10
    Consul Rokchick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    -32 degrees latitude, free, safe and warm
    Posts
    8,564

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Flossie Schmumpus View Post
    This whole thing has been rather enlightening....in the space of something less than 48 hrs I have been accused of being a trumpette and a leftist. I must be doing something right.
    Or, something totally terrible. There's someone else who was a lefty demagogue. Wait, a trumpet? A loud lefty?
    I'm glad I'm not judgemental like all you smug, superficial idiots

  11. #11
    Philosopher cofc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Back to Oz.
    Posts
    4,246

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Flossie Schmumpus View Post
    This whole thing has been rather enlightening....in the space of something less than 48 hrs I have been accused of being a trumpette and a leftist. I must be doing something right.
    You are a leftist according to your political views that you have expressed in this forum. Trump is also a leftist on many positions....

  12. #12
    Consul The Burninator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    The Great Garden State
    Posts
    8,570

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Flossie Schmumpus View Post
    This whole thing has been rather enlightening....in the space of something less than 48 hrs I have been accused of being a trumpette and a leftist. I must be doing something right.
    I'm pretty sure that when cofc says "you're a leftist" he basically means "you aren't Murray Rothbard."

    You're pretty apparently a centrist to anyone not crazy and/or not trolling, dear mead-loving Flossie

  13. #13

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cofc View Post
    You are a leftist according to your political views that you have expressed in this forum. Trump is also a leftist on many positions....
    What makes Trump a leftist in your opinion?

  14. #14
    Philosopher cofc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Back to Oz.
    Posts
    4,246

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Summer View Post
    What makes Trump a leftist in your opinion?
    Most of his nationalist views.

  15. #15

    Dan Chak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Syracuse, baby!
    Posts
    8,063

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Summer View Post
    What makes Trump a leftist in your opinion?
    I hate to say it, but he's right. Before the election garbage, Trump was far more of a leftist than right. If you paid attention, he continually shifted his stance throughout the run. First he would say something leftist, and every Republican Flea Bag would freak. Next day, Trump would pull a Hillary and do an about face.
    Quote Originally Posted by gebne View Post
    St. Chak, glorious atelier, faithful servant and bearer of thong,
    the stain of the troll has caused you to be forgotten by many,
    but the true forum invokes you universally as the patron of things despised of;
    pray for me, that finally I may receive the alterations and the couture of thongs in all my fripperies, ornamentations, and trimmings,
    particularly those of purple hue, and that I may read Chak with the thong throughout Eternity.

  16. #16
    Consul The Burninator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    The Great Garden State
    Posts
    8,570

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Chak View Post
    I hate to say it, but he's right. Before the election garbage, Trump was far more of a leftist than right. If you paid attention, he continually shifted his stance throughout the run. First he would say something leftist, and every Republican Flea Bag would freak. Next day, Trump would pull a Hillary and do an about face.
    On what issues? I don't see a single issue upon which The Donald is left of center. (Or has been at any point during the campaign.)

  17. #17
    Philosopher cofc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Back to Oz.
    Posts
    4,246

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Burninator View Post
    On what issues? I don't see a single issue upon which The Donald is left of center. (Or has been at any point during the campaign.)
    You think the center is Bernard Gutman.

  18. #18

    Dan Chak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Syracuse, baby!
    Posts
    8,063

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Burninator View Post
    On what issues? I don't see a single issue upon which The Donald is left of center. (Or has been at any point during the campaign.)
    Then you have only been reading leftist news sources. They did their durnedest to screw up Bernie and Trump.
    Quote Originally Posted by gebne View Post
    St. Chak, glorious atelier, faithful servant and bearer of thong,
    the stain of the troll has caused you to be forgotten by many,
    but the true forum invokes you universally as the patron of things despised of;
    pray for me, that finally I may receive the alterations and the couture of thongs in all my fripperies, ornamentations, and trimmings,
    particularly those of purple hue, and that I may read Chak with the thong throughout Eternity.

  19. #19
    Consul The Burninator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    The Great Garden State
    Posts
    8,570

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Chak View Post
    Then you have only been reading leftist news sources. They did their durnedest to screw up Bernie and Trump.
    Not sure what you mean. Trump's contract with America or whatever does not contain a single left of center proposition, and I'm not aware of a time during the campaign when he did support a left of center position. I'm asking for an example, not a castigation of my media habits. My grandparents and my favorite aunt and uncle voted for Trump, and I always read what they share and listen to what they think. Nobody's perfect, Dan, and I admit that the news sources I read most carefully and in depth do come from left of center sources. But I'd think I'd have come into contact with something about Trump's lefty statements if such statements existed.

    Anyway, all I'm asking for is an example.

  20. #20

    Dan Chak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Syracuse, baby!
    Posts
    8,063

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Burninator View Post
    Not sure what you mean. Trump's contract with America or whatever does not contain a single left of center proposition, and I'm not aware of a time during the campaign when he did support a left of center position. I'm asking for an example, not a castigation of my media habits. My grandparents and my favorite aunt and uncle voted for Trump, and I always read what they share and listen to what they think. Nobody's perfect, Dan, and I admit that the news sources I read most carefully and in depth do come from left of center sources. But I'd think I'd have come into contact with something about Trump's lefty statements if such statements existed.

    Anyway, all I'm asking for is an example.
    Google is your friend. I'm 50 and have seen how he's gone over the decades.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...erals-liberal/
    Ha! And it's a US site!
    I've given up on US news sites. Too much of anything does nothing but screw us in the worst of ways.
    Quote Originally Posted by gebne View Post
    St. Chak, glorious atelier, faithful servant and bearer of thong,
    the stain of the troll has caused you to be forgotten by many,
    but the true forum invokes you universally as the patron of things despised of;
    pray for me, that finally I may receive the alterations and the couture of thongs in all my fripperies, ornamentations, and trimmings,
    particularly those of purple hue, and that I may read Chak with the thong throughout Eternity.

  21. #21

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Chak View Post
    I hate to say it, but he's right. Before the election garbage, Trump was far more of a leftist than right. If you paid attention, he continually shifted his stance throughout the run. First he would say something leftist, and every Republican Flea Bag would freak. Next day, Trump would pull a Hillary and do an about face.
    The only credit I'm willing to give Trump is his anti- Iraq war stance and position of not arming rebels. That's quite in line with with the anti-war left more than it is with practically all republicans and many democrats. Although, he has also been quite confrontational with major powers in the middle east, i.e. Saudi Arabia and Iran. So he does take a 'leftist' position on the Iraq war followed by a hard right position that the "US should go in and take the oil." but hey, a broken clock is right twice a day.

  22. #22

    Dan Chak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Syracuse, baby!
    Posts
    8,063

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Summer View Post
    The only credit I'm willing to give Trump is his anti- Iraq war stance and position of not arming rebels. That's quite in line with with the anti-war left more than it is with practically all republicans and many democrats. Although, he has also been quite confrontational with major powers in the middle east, i.e. Saudi Arabia and Iran. So he does take a 'leftist' position on the Iraq war followed by a hard right position that the "US should go in and take the oil." but hey, a broken clock is right twice a day.
    I am not arguing in favor of him. Only that he has changed his clock more often than his underwear.
    Quote Originally Posted by gebne View Post
    St. Chak, glorious atelier, faithful servant and bearer of thong,
    the stain of the troll has caused you to be forgotten by many,
    but the true forum invokes you universally as the patron of things despised of;
    pray for me, that finally I may receive the alterations and the couture of thongs in all my fripperies, ornamentations, and trimmings,
    particularly those of purple hue, and that I may read Chak with the thong throughout Eternity.

  23. #23
    Consul The Burninator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    The Great Garden State
    Posts
    8,570

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Chak View Post
    Google is your friend. I'm 50 and have seen how he's gone over the decades.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...erals-liberal/
    Ha! And it's a US site!
    I've given up on US news sites. Too much of anything does nothing but screw us in the worst of ways.
    Ah. I read your original comment as a claim that he had said anything left of center during the campaign.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Chak View Post
    I hate to say it, but he's right. Before the election garbage, Trump was far more of a leftist than right. If you paid attention, he continually shifted his stance throughout the run. First he would say something leftist, and every Republican Flea Bag would freak. Next day, Trump would pull a Hillary and do an about face.
    But neither any observation I've made (nor the article you posted) provides any evidence of lefty positions during the campaign.

    Yes, I don't dispute that younger Donald held much more reasonable stances on a lot of issues than current Donald. Of course, that't not a very high bar

  24. #24

    Dan Chak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Syracuse, baby!
    Posts
    8,063

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Burninator View Post
    Ah. I read your original comment as a claim that he had said anything left of center during the campaign.

    But neither any observation I've made (nor the article you posted) provides any evidence of lefty positions during the campaign.

    Yes, I don't dispute that younger Donald held much more reasonable stances on a lot of issues than current Donald. Of course, that't not a very high bar
    I found more with Google, but am done doing research for others. Especially since I have no dog in this race. I couldn't care what anyone thinks of Trump, thus, no education from me.
    But he did bop back and forth. Every time he said something slightly leftist or more, his followers would shriek to high heaven and he'd change his position, sometimes the same day.
    He manipulated millions into voting for him, but I think he was just as surprised as the Shillorites when he won.
    Quote Originally Posted by gebne View Post
    St. Chak, glorious atelier, faithful servant and bearer of thong,
    the stain of the troll has caused you to be forgotten by many,
    but the true forum invokes you universally as the patron of things despised of;
    pray for me, that finally I may receive the alterations and the couture of thongs in all my fripperies, ornamentations, and trimmings,
    particularly those of purple hue, and that I may read Chak with the thong throughout Eternity.

  25. #25

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Chak View Post
    I found more with Google, but am done doing research for others. Especially since I have no dog in this race. I couldn't care what anyone thinks of Trump, thus, no education from me.
    But he did bop back and forth. Every time he said something slightly leftist or more, his followers would shriek to high heaven and he'd change his position, sometimes the same day.
    He manipulated millions into voting for him, but I think he was just as surprised as the Shillorites when he won.
    Yeah retrospectively, I think he was really out to win and created a great strategy. He knew the west coast was not going to vote for him and neither would the north east so he didn't really pander to us. His slogen 'make american great again' appealed to the once industrial north and promissed to bring back jobs even threatening to after executives that moved outside the US, this was both an appeal to the working class of Michigan and Wisconsin and a stab at Clinton. It went under our liberal noses, as the politically correct coasts were going on and on about his remarks about race and gender, he was making promises to the rust belt. It reminds me now of the conversation that I had with a friend from Madison Wisconsin a few years ago and how he blamed NAFTA for taking jobs away from his state, in California no one blames nor talks much about NAFTA - as globalization helped California's pacific trade economy.

    Trump's appeal to defend the second amendment and anti-abortion stance unified the NRA and evengelicals. Hillary basically did a poor job at unifying the liberal base, she attempted to appeal though on Russia which she assumed would have given her credentials among republican voters in the cold war era, but this Reaganesque tough stance on Russia and Iran actually drew her away from many anti-war liberals that perhaps stayed home - Trump on the other hand took an anti-Iraq stance (a blow to Hillary as she voted for the war) an may have drawn over some anti-war liberals. The three other main issues for liberals is the environment, civil rights, and regulations on finance. On the environment Hillary did poorly and ignored that issue altogether, so did Trump - neither candidate cared to win over environmentalists. As for regulation on finance in a nation where many lost homes not so long ago, this liberal base was disillusioned by Hillary being paid millions to give talks (legal bribes) by financial institutions - to this base of liberald Hillary was just as bad as a manhattan mogul. So it left Hillary with civil rights and the main platform of being the lessor of two evils, which wasn't enough to win it.

    It's worthy to note Trump's clever use of attacks on character. He found weaknesses and exploited them, "low energy Jeb Bush" was a crack at Jeb Bush's monotone persona, "Little Marco" was a jab at Rubio's inexperience as he appeared young, "Lyin' Ted" as Ted Cruz attemped legal manuvering to prove he was a citizen despite being born in Canada - he was using lawyer speak to define 'natural born citizen' and then finally "crooked Hillary" that exploited Hillary's questionable past. These words have psychological appeal.
    Last edited by Summer; 11-17-2016 at 02:18 AM.

  26. #26
    Consul The Burninator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    The Great Garden State
    Posts
    8,570

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Chak View Post
    I found more with Google, but am done doing research for others.
    But nothing worth posting?

    I don't wish to accuse you of dishonesty, Dan, I just think you're mistaken regarding the Donald having taken any left of center position during the campaign. I have followed it pretty closely, and I don't remember him holding any such position during his campaign, nor do I turn up anything when I look. I wasn't looking for a thinkpiece -- just an example.

    I'd have thought you'd go for LGBT issues, since he's waffled on them throughout the campaign. Still, given that the majority of Americans currently take the civil rights position on LGBT issues, I would say Donald's position is and has been centrist there, at best. Your only other plausible path might be on breaking the power of the big banks. But I don't read the position as left, in that he doesn't seem to want to break the power of certain corporate lobbies or multinational corporations because he thinks they're unethically exploiting their employees and their consumers, but either because they're successful and not him, or because they're not appropriately subservient to the state, their rightful Master. I read Trump's larger economic policy as mercantilist. It's simply anachronistic, not left of center. A "bring back the 1920's and Smoot Hawley" version of a response to this tendency in the world rather than a "bring mankind together" kind of a left of center response. And given his consistent complaints about regulation and promises to deregulate, even to gut the already-inadequate provisions of the Dodd-Frank, it's hard to say he's on the left on the economy as a whole. As far as I can see, those are the most plausible two cases for Trump being or having been on the left on any issue during his campaign, and frankly, there's not much there. You can call him a centrist on LGBT issues -- if you ignore his more recent staff appointments anyway.

  27. #27

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Burninator View Post
    But nothing worth posting?

    I don't wish to accuse you of dishonesty, Dan, I just think you're mistaken regarding the Donald having taken any left of center position during the campaign. I have followed it pretty closely, and I don't remember him holding any such position during his campaign, nor do I turn up anything when I look. I wasn't looking for a thinkpiece -- just an example.

    I'd have thought you'd go for LGBT issues, since he's waffled on them throughout the campaign. Still, given that the majority of Americans currently take the civil rights position on LGBT issues, I would say Donald's position is and has been centrist there, at best. Your only other plausible path might be on breaking the power of the big banks. But I don't read the position as left, in that he doesn't seem to want to break the power of certain corporate lobbies or multinational corporations because he thinks they're unethically exploiting their employees and their consumers, but either because they're successful and not him, or because they're not appropriately subservient to the state, their rightful Master. I read Trump's larger economic policy as mercantilist. It's simply anachronistic, not left of center. A "bring back the 1920's and Smoot Hawley" version of a response to this tendency in the world rather than a "bring mankind together" kind of a left of center response. And given his consistent complaints about regulation and promises to deregulate, even to gut the already-inadequate provisions of the Dodd-Frank, it's hard to say he's on the left on the economy as a whole. As far as I can see, those are the most plausible two cases for Trump being or having been on the left on any issue during his campaign, and frankly, there's not much there. You can call him a centrist on LGBT issues -- if you ignore his more recent staff appointments anyway.
    Trump's anti-Iraq war stance and mention of punishing businesses that moved manufacturing to places like mexico could be regarded as left positions during his campaign.

  28. #28
    Consul The Burninator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    The Great Garden State
    Posts
    8,570

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Summer View Post
    Trump's anti-Iraq war stance and mention of punishing businesses that moved manufacturing to places like mexico could be regarded as left positions during his campaign.
    Since the majority of Americans still believe that the Iraq war was a mistake, I find it difficult to believe that I'm supposed to take that position as "left." That's a centrist position. To get left you've got to say Afghanistan, too, was a mistake. In other words, I'd say "Neither Iraq nor Afghanistan were a mistake" is right, "Iraq was a mistake" is center, and "both were a mistake" is left, broadly speaking. I don't buy opposition to Iraq in hindsight as a leftist position... even Hillary the hawk has said that Iraq was a mistake during her campaign, and she's center-right on foreign policy.

    Also, as I mentioned in my post, I don't believe that being against globalization automatically registers you as a leftist. His economics are mercantilist rather than left of center. They just don't belong in a post-industrial revolution discussion about economics, which makes them hard to place on a left-right dichotomy.

  29. #29

    Dan Chak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Syracuse, baby!
    Posts
    8,063

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Burninator View Post
    But nothing worth posting?

    I don't wish to accuse you of dishonesty, Dan, I just think you're mistaken regarding the Donald having taken any left of center position during the campaign. I have followed it pretty closely, and I don't remember him holding any such position during his campaign, nor do I turn up anything when I look. I wasn't looking for a thinkpiece -- just an example.

    I'd have thought you'd go for LGBT issues, since he's waffled on them throughout the campaign. Still, given that the majority of Americans currently take the civil rights position on LGBT issues, I would say Donald's position is and has been centrist there, at best. Your only other plausible path might be on breaking the power of the big banks. But I don't read the position as left, in that he doesn't seem to want to break the power of certain corporate lobbies or multinational corporations because he thinks they're unethically exploiting their employees and their consumers, but either because they're successful and not him, or because they're not appropriately subservient to the state, their rightful Master. I read Trump's larger economic policy as mercantilist. It's simply anachronistic, not left of center. A "bring back the 1920's and Smoot Hawley" version of a response to this tendency in the world rather than a "bring mankind together" kind of a left of center response. And given his consistent complaints about regulation and promises to deregulate, even to gut the already-inadequate provisions of the Dodd-Frank, it's hard to say he's on the left on the economy as a whole. As far as I can see, those are the most plausible two cases for Trump being or having been on the left on any issue during his campaign, and frankly, there's not much there. You can call him a centrist on LGBT issues -- if you ignore his more recent staff appointments anyway.
    I'm sick with the flu and at work. If you have no real interest in educating yourself, your loss. As I said, I don't care.
    I also don't care what you tell me I can call him on ANY issue, Centrist, Left or whatever. You are judging this with your own history and knowledge. I am judging this on the fact that the entire political system has slid to the right, including most of the Democrats.
    I didn't vote for him or Hillary. Not my fault he's in office, because as much as he bubbles back and forth between Left and Right, his complete lack of political experience makes him dangerous.
    Quote Originally Posted by gebne View Post
    St. Chak, glorious atelier, faithful servant and bearer of thong,
    the stain of the troll has caused you to be forgotten by many,
    but the true forum invokes you universally as the patron of things despised of;
    pray for me, that finally I may receive the alterations and the couture of thongs in all my fripperies, ornamentations, and trimmings,
    particularly those of purple hue, and that I may read Chak with the thong throughout Eternity.

  30. #30
    Consul Rokchick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    -32 degrees latitude, free, safe and warm
    Posts
    8,564

    Default

    He's not left or right, he's jelly. He will say whatever suits his purpose on the day. Going into iraq is neither left or right. Or either, depending on the reason you use to go in.

    His execs confirm he believes the last thing said to him, so those in his close team are going to decide what he believes on the day. What a way to rule the world!
    I'm glad I'm not judgemental like all you smug, superficial idiots

  31. #31
    Consul The Blazin1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Murica... **** yeah
    Posts
    6,858

    Default

    You're killing me smalls.
    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    You should quote yourself. It's like liking your Facebook status or high-fiving yourself in the mirror.

    It's what I would do if I didn't have to keep mine exactly how it is for madsquirrels and erazer.

  32. #32

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Burninator View Post
    Since the majority of Americans still believe that the Iraq war was a mistake, I find it difficult to believe that I'm supposed to take that position as "left." That's a centrist position. To get left you've got to say Afghanistan, too, was a mistake. In other words, I'd say "Neither Iraq nor Afghanistan were a mistake" is right, "Iraq was a mistake" is center, and "both were a mistake" is left, broadly speaking. I don't buy opposition to Iraq in hindsight as a leftist position... even Hillary the hawk has said that Iraq was a mistake during her campaign, and she's center-right on foreign policy.

    Also, as I mentioned in my post, I don't believe that being against globalization automatically registers you as a leftist. His economics are mercantilist rather than left of center. They just don't belong in a post-industrial revolution discussion about economics, which makes them hard to place on a left-right dichotomy.
    The Iraq war was a major issue in 2003 for the left. There were demonstrations against the war in major US cities with a large liberal following. Hillary was also for intervention in Libya and Syria, which liberals tend to oppose bombing and arming rebel groups, Trump took the position against bombing Libya and arming rebels - that tends to be traditionally in line with liberals. Conservatives tend to agree that bombing and arming rebel groups is necessary to retain American dominance and security around the world - *I think bombing and arming groups decreases American dominance and decreases global security.

    As for globalization, that's a tricky one, that is opposed and championed by the left and right for different reasons. Liberals oppose globalization because it leads to exploitation of workers in sweat shops around the world that live is miserable conditions, while only seemingly to benefit the global elites. The right opposes globalization because it 'moves jobs' to other countries. That said both liberals and conservatives that champion globalization regard interconnected economies as a global net benefit and creates bonds between nations.

    - to note, Trump certainly pandered to the anti-war left and anti-globalization left, but he's an oppurtunist and his aim was getting elected. Given Trump's massive ego and threats to boycott Saudi oil and undo the Iran nuclear agreement along with threatening a trade war with China - these things are bound to lead to conflict and could potentially lead to terrorist attacks or cyber attacks and Trump will then respond and how Trump responds will be his defining moment, in which case I don't think he'll be a pacifist in that scenario. * and to me, Trump is potentially dangerous.
    Last edited by Summer; 11-17-2016 at 03:14 AM.

  33. #33
    Senator Mouse-Keyboard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    The country with the world's longest official name
    Posts
    3,724

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Chak View Post
    I also don't care what you tell me I can call him on ANY issue, Centrist, Left or whatever. You are judging this with your own history and knowledge. I am judging this on the fact that the entire political system has slid to the right, including most of the Democrats.
    "You're judging this with your own history and knowledge, but I'm completely unbiased."

  34. #34
    Consul The Burninator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    The Great Garden State
    Posts
    8,570

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Chak View Post
    I'm sick with the flu and at work.
    Then I feel for you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Chak View Post
    If you have no real interest in educating yourself, your loss.
    Two responses:
    1) I hardly think that trying to figure out what Trump thinks about any given issue counts as "educating yourself." Maybe "de-educating yourself."
    2) This is incredibly unfair. I think you're mistaken about a very specific thing -- that Trump campaigned to the left on any issue -- and asked you to provide an example of an issue you think Trump campaigned on the left of. To suggest that my failure to think of one is due to a lack of education or desire to be educated on my part is unfair since I specifically said that (a) I think you're mistaken and (b) offered to reconsider if you provided an example.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Chak View Post
    As I said, I don't care.
    Fine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Chak View Post
    I also don't care what you tell me I can call him on ANY issue, Centrist, Left or whatever.
    I'm not telling you what you can and can't call anything. If you think Trump is to the left or center or right on any issue, by all means, provide such an example. It's only what I've asked you to do from the beginning of this conversation. If you think that my characterization of Trump on a given issue is wrong, you could consider saying so and saying why rather than trying to suggest that what I've done is said "you can't say this phrase: ..." I certainly don't see where I posted "Dan isn't allowed to think X." I've actually been trying to speculate what issues you could be thinking of since, as has been noted, you've declined to actually provide the example yourself. If you're not going to, I don't see how you can complain that I'm trying to do the thinking about it myself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Chak View Post
    You are judging this with your own history and knowledge.
    Does this set me apart from anyone else?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Chak View Post
    I am judging this on the fact that the entire political system has slid to the right, including most of the Democrats.
    Ok. I mean, as a person who voted Green and supported Sanders (arguing that he's essentially Dwight Eisenhower) in the primary, I agree that the whole spectrum has moved right. But I don't see how this is related to any of the prior things that I've claimed. I'd speculate as to what you're talking about here specifically, but it would be a lot easier if you actually pointed to where you think I've done this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Chak View Post
    I didn't vote for him or Hillary. Not my fault he's in office, because as much as he bubbles back and forth between Left and Right, his complete lack of political experience makes him dangerous.
    I agree with this.

    I commented on your post in the first place only because I read you as suggesting that Trump was on the left of a nonspecified issue at some point in his campaign. Since I am not aware of any such issue or point in the campaign, I was interested to know what you were thinking of. I apologize if you felt that I was asking you to defend Trump or defend anything, really. I wanted to know what issue you thought he was on the left of during his campaign and why, since I can't think of any issue he was on the left of during his campaign.
    Quote Originally Posted by Summer View Post
    The Iraq war was a major issue in 2003 for the left. There were demonstrations against the war in major US cities with a large liberal following.
    As a reminder, this is what you were responding to:
    Quote Originally Posted by The Burninator View Post
    I don't buy opposition to Iraq in hindsight as a leftist position... even Hillary the hawk has said that Iraq was a mistake during her campaign,
    I agree that being against the war when it wasn't obvious that it was a terrible idea placed you on the Left. I don't agree that realizing it a decade later -- when even the hawks realize it -- places you on the left. The American center believes that the Iraq war was a mistake.
    Quote Originally Posted by Summer View Post
    Hillary was also for intervention in Libya and Syria, which liberals tend to oppose bombing and arming rebel groups, Trump took the position against bombing Libya and arming rebels - that tends to be traditionally in line with liberals. Conservatives tend to agree that bombing and arming rebel groups is necessary to retain American dominance and security around the world - *I think bombing and arming groups decreases American dominance and decreases global security.
    Again, in hindsight. Clinton won't admit her mistake in Libya -- but you also admit that she's a warhawk; clearly on the right. I'd say the position Trump took there was centrist, not left. But again, your prerogative if you want to consider opposition to the ousting of a regime only because we weren't aggressive enough / didn't also steal their oil as a position that stems from a leftist concern like international human rights or a sense of cosmopolitanism or a respect for international law.
    Quote Originally Posted by Summer View Post
    Trump certainly pandered to the anti-war left and anti-globalization left,
    I really can't see where or how. Even Zizek, ever representative of the "I'm-definitely-on-crack" wing of the insane left, could only muster a "vote for Trump because burn everything."
    Last edited by The Burninator; 11-17-2016 at 03:29 AM.

  35. #35

    Woden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Georgia, U.S.A.
    Posts
    11,602

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Chak View Post
    If you have no real interest in educating yourself, your loss.
    If you don't want to answer him, fine, but you could you drop the "educate yourself" stuff? He's already said that he looked and was unable to find anything like what you were saying, which makes comments like the one quoted come off as very condescending and evasive.

  36. #36
    Consul Luisss's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Rhode Island
    Posts
    10,949

    Default

    I think Trump's position on universal healthcare would qualify as a position that he was left of center, and then had to backtrack on. Some video about that:

    HEALTHCARE



    ABORTION

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsOlXidHXRE

    His "FAIR TRADE" policies are largely left of center - punishing businesses for finding cost-savings and moving headquarters to other countries, etc.

    Just a few of what I've seen of him changing positions on things.

  37. #37
    Consul The Burninator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    The Great Garden State
    Posts
    8,570

    Default

    Luisss:
    On healthcare: I don't know who labeled that video, but he didn't suggest universal healthcare. He suggested that the uninsured would be taken care of at hospitals even if they can't pay. That's uh... How it works right now. If you have an injury and walk in to a hospital, they treat you. "Universal healthcare" supported by the left means "universal health insurance" which is absolutely not what Donald suggested here. Also he suggested that Obamacare would be repealed and replaced with private healthcare. That's a right of center position on the issue. It's funny that they GOP made him not even talk about how it works now, but it doesn't qualify as leftist.

    Abortion: the video is from 1999 and the debate is about whether Donald was left of center DURING THE CAMPAIGN. It is agreed by all parties that Donald used to be reasonable and have some left of center positions. The debate is about whether he ran on any.

    Trade: protectionism is actually not left from the outset. How can you justify it when your ideology suggests that we are divided not by nation, but by class? Protectionism can be leftist if you're suggesting class wealth redistribution using protectionism as a mechanism, but trumps "fair trade" ideas are mercantilist, not leftist, as has been noted above. Why do you think those ideas are related to the left?

    Right: "businesses are people so the economy should serve businesses to serve people."
    Left: "workers are people so the economy should serve workers to serve people."
    Trump/mercantilism/fascism: "the State is people so the economy should serve the State to serve people."

    Trump doesn't propose wealth distribution in favor of workers; he proposes wealth distribution in favor of "America." That's not left; its nationalist.

  38. #38
    Consul Luisss's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Rhode Island
    Posts
    10,949

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Burninator View Post
    Luisss:
    On healthcare: I don't know who labeled that video, but he didn't suggest universal healthcare. He suggested that the uninsured would be taken care of at hospitals even if they can't pay. That's uh... How it works right now. If you have an injury and walk in to a hospital, they treat you. "Universal healthcare" supported by the left means "universal health insurance" which is absolutely not what Donald suggested here. Also he suggested that Obamacare would be repealed and replaced with private healthcare. That's a right of center position on the issue. It's funny that they GOP made him not even talk about how it works now, but it doesn't qualify as leftist.
    He specifically said "Everyone has to be covered". Doesn't the word "covered" imply insurance rather than just ER visits which, as you mentioned, is already happening?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Burninator View Post
    Abortion: the video is from 1999 and the debate is about whether Donald was left of center DURING THE CAMPAIGN. It is agreed by all parties that Donald used to be reasonable and have some left of center positions. The debate is about whether he ran on any.
    True.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Burninator View Post
    Trade: protectionism is actually not left from the outset. How can you justify it when your ideology suggests that we are divided not by nation, but by class? Protectionism can be leftist if you're suggesting class wealth redistribution using protectionism as a mechanism, but trumps "fair trade" ideas are mercantilist, not leftist, as has been noted above. Why do you think those ideas are related to the left?
    Both bernie and Trump ran against the TPP and against deals like NAFTA, renegotiating trade deals, getting jobs back from China, etc.

  39. #39
    Consul The Burninator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    The Great Garden State
    Posts
    8,570

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Luisss View Post
    He specifically said "Everyone has to be covered". Doesn't the word "covered" imply insurance rather than just ER visits which, as you mentioned, is already happening?
    I mean, you took the unclear statement in the beginning of the interview rather than the part 3 seconds later when the reporter asks specifically "what about uninsured people" and trump says "I'll make a deal with hospitals to get them care." That's not getting them insurance, that's getting them emergency care. So yeah, getting them "covered" would imply that in other cases, but if I say "I'll make sure everyone is covered -- if you're uninsured I'll make sure you get care going into the hospital," that doesn't imply "you'll be covered by health insurance" anymore.
    Quote Originally Posted by Luisss View Post
    Both bernie and Trump ran against the TPP and against deals like NAFTA, renegotiating trade deals, getting jobs back from China, etc.
    True enough, but as Summer explained above, and as I keep saying, being against free trade isn't automatically a leftist position. Feudal kings and queens were against free trade too -- and that's the kind of argument Donald runs. He's mercantilist not leftist. I'm not sure how else to explain what I am trying to say on that issue, so perhaps (1) I am mistaken or (2) I should think more about how to precisely say what I want to on it.

  40. #40
    Philosopher н-υ-п-т-ε-я's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    in my body of course
    Posts
    1,622

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cofc View Post
    a republican?
    Trump's Party (political affiliations) History:
    Democrat before 1987
    Republican 1987-1999
    Reform 1999-2001
    Democrat 2001-2009
    Republican 2009-2011
    independant 2011-2012
    Republican 2012-present

    forecast:
    Reptilian 2017-2018
    Alien 2018-2019
    Dracula 2019-2020
    Armageddon 2020-end
    Quote Originally Posted by Avicenna
    That whose existence is necessary must necessarily be one essence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rumi
    What you are seeking is also seeking you.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •