Obama uses last few days in office

[Sapient]

I highly doubt that most sharks are in the habit of begging me to **** them, then proceeding to beg me to blast my bodily fluids inside them because "I just like the way it feels," and the whole time the shark was off the pill/falsified her charts so that way she'd get pregnant to trap me, and then 6 months later change its mind and decide to kill my son because killing people is how it gets its rocks off.

Yeah. Sharks are that much smarter/better people/less manipulative/less murderous than women. I just went there. Or your analogy blows that hard.

This sounds personal.

[Sirveri]

I did.

They do in sanctuary cities, that Cubans can't get here as easy because they use driftwood to float over the THE ****IN OCEAN to get here. That being said, why are you so quiet about Obama sealing a border. ALL illegal immigration must be stopped.

It's 90 Miles, and people have swum it, including a 60 year old woman. The areas the Mexicans cross are in some ways worse, since it can be 90 miles across some very unforgiving terrain. Also, Sanctuary cities don't give citizenship, because they don't actually have the power to do that. They just refuse to cooperate with immigration officials.

[Rokchick]

I highly doubt that most sharks are in the habit of begging me to **** them, then proceeding to beg me to blast my bodily fluids inside them because "I just like the way it feels," and the whole time the shark was off the pill/falsified her charts so that way she'd get pregnant to trap me, and then 6 months later change its mind and decide to kill my son because killing people is how it gets its rocks off.

Yeah. Sharks are that much smarter/better people/less manipulative/less murderous than women. I just went there. Or your analogy blows that hard.

You do know that you are sitting right in the tin foil hat non-science conspiracy nut demographic here, right? Sure, that happens sometimes, so does men murdering their wives. But just because it happens occasionally I don't think it's relevant to completely stop marriage. Or to assume every married man is going to kill their wife. But, you know, if that's the way your mind works on this one issue, you are probably real pleased about donnie and his talking about autism when asked about vaccines.

How about every time a woman gets pregnant accidentally, we castrate the man at fault? That might slow the incidence somewhat eh?

and before anyone pulls on their outrage pants,I'm pointing out how you can find stupid arguments that make sense (in a warped way) for almost everything.

[Lurk]

Thanks for acknowledging that your analogy falls right into the wacko thinking basket.

How about every time a woman wants to get scraped, she has to get her tubes tied during the procedure?

[Rokchick]

Thanks for acknowledging that your analogy falls right into the wacko thinking basket.

How about every time a woman wants to get scraped, she has to get her tubes tied during the procedure?

Makes about as much sense. Your whole argument is just ridiculous. The shark isn't you or her. Leave it to those who can think straight without personal involvement or witchery.

[Lurk]

Oh, I get that the shark is the kid. The problem is, most people don't voluntarily put the shark on their leg, and those that do that sort of thing generally end up in CBRFs. Most women who get abortions do so after consensual sex (I understand that your ideology doesn't typically acknowledge the existence of such, but indulge me). That's where your analogy fails hard, so I gave it far more respect than it deserved and made it work logically as best as it was capable of doing.

You're welcome.

[Rokchick]

Oh, I get that the shark is the kid. The problem is, most people don't voluntarily put the shark on their leg, and those that do that sort of thing generally end up in CBRFs. Most women who get abortions do so after consensual sex (I understand that your ideology doesn't typically acknowledge the existence of such, but indulge me). That's where your analogy fails hard, so I gave it far more respect than it deserved and made it work logically as best as it was capable of doing.

You're welcome.

No, you really didn't. Consensual sex is between 2 people, but very few abortions are carried out on voluntary pregnancies. Usually only if the woman or child is at serious risk. So your analogy would be better if swimming is the sex, and every time you go swimming there is a very small chance you will get bitten by a shark, no matter how careful you are. Lets not blame every swimmer just because there was once an idiot who went out with a fresh and lacerated leg of mutton tied to him.

But of course in this scenario, let's make it that only men can swim and only in guarded areas and only women can be lifeguards (so you require our consent to swim). You REALLY love swimming though, so you keep swimming and those lifeguards really love their job and keep encouraging you in. Now, when you get attacked by a dolphin and the only way to stop the attack is to kill the dolphin, shall I kill it? You might survive the attack if I don't, you could die, but it will take months for you to dislodge the dolphin and it will be a difficult time. You will probably lose a foot anyway (or do you think there are no long term effects to having a baby?) and the dolphin might not survive anyway. PETA might say let you take the risk, the dolphin is worth as much as you and whats a few months in the water compared to their life? I might kill it if you want me to anyway, even though most dolphins are great and deserve to live. You choose.

Now that we are into the tunnel of metaphorical analogous analogies, lets dive on in (if the water is warm and not too bloody).

[Sapient]

It's a self protection thing. He can't bear to think he was wrong.
Sap, get over it. It's over.

I still don't understand what you're talking about.

[Rokchick]

I still don't understand what you're talking about.

OOPS I missed the quote. It was to:

And if the hand on the tiller were Hillary, we would be invading Afghanistan and Syria within the next few months. I abhor her belligerence.

[The Blazin1]

Rok, no one here is saying if having the baby will kill it's mother she should be forced to have it, but people have abortions like it's a sport.

[Sapient]

I still don't understand. I think you're the confused one.

[Rokchick]

Rok, no one here is saying if the baby will it's mother she should be forced to have it, but people have abortions like it's a sport.

Says a man. That's your misconception. It's a medical procedure that no one enters into lightly. But even if it was done early as a common form of birth control, so what? You can't support all the wanted children anyway.

[The Blazin1]

Says a man... back on ignore. I really can't ******* stand you rok. You are a miserable, man-hating, idiot, and you are a poor replacement for Ebol in these forums.

[н-υ-п-т-ε-я]

And now you can use unborn children for human testing, organs and stem cells research. Well done abortion! Well done liberals!

Incest is on the way!

Legal cannibalism not too far ahead, not too far!

Like pigs eat anything that they can bite, true brainwashed liberals accept anything that the people in power tell them to believe in!

[Rokchick]

Says a man... back on ignore. I really can't ******* stand you rok. You are a miserable, man-hating, idiot, and you are a poor replacement for Ebol in these forums.

Even if you don't see this, you are a dill. No man can understand something that they can never experience the same way some who could or does can. It's not anti man, it's just life. You can't get pregnant, you can't give birth and you can't have an abortion. I can't understand what a late stage circumcision is like, or how it can even be conceived.
You can empathise, but you cannot understand, and telling me that abortion is being treated like a sport is trite, stupid and not even up to your low standards.

[Sirveri]

Like pigs eat anything that they can bite, true brainwashed liberals accept anything that the people in power tell them to believe in!

Either that or people just happen to have different opinions on certain matters.

[Lurk]

post

While that is much better, it still ignores the fact that in the vast majority of cases the mother's life is not being endangered (having a dolphin, or any animal's teeth around your leg for months is life threatening).

Here's something from a pro-abortion website: http://www.womenscenter.com/abortion_reasons.html

The most common underlying reasons for abortion were 1) they could not afford a child at the time and were unmarried (42%), 2) it would interfere with their education (38%), 3) it would interfere with their employment (38%), and 4) they were students or planning to enroll in studies (34%). Other reasons are having relationship problems, not ready for another child, or don’t want people to know they had sex or got pregnant, the health of the fetus, victim of ****, or became pregnant as result of incest.

(not sure which way this site leans) http://abort73.com/abortion_facts/us...ion_statistics

<0.5% Victim of ****
3% Fetal health problems
4% Physical health problems
4% Would interfere with education or career
7% Not mature enough to raise a child
8% Don't want to be a single mother
19% Done having children
23% Can't afford a baby
25% Not ready for a child
6% Other

So your analogy only works for <7.5% of all abortion cases. The rest are due to reasons of convenience. I don't use that term to say that they're being narcissists; what I mean by that is that they are putting their lives first and not considering alternative options.

What I find sad/disturbing about your post is that you seem to regard pregnancy as something inherently dangerous, something that is a negative (and always negative) consequence that has to be, but isn't, taken into account when having a healthy sex life. I regard pregnancy as the natural end to a natural act that a loving partner can take part in, albeit indirectly. I regard it as an expression of one's humanity in general and femininity in particular, and to attempt to destroy that is to participate in self-denial - not the self-denial that can be beautiful in simplicity of life, but the destructive kind of self-denial where one acts more like an animal than a human being with responsibilities and a duty to the human community to foster life.

The ironic thing is that I agree with the vast majority of things feminists have to say. However, in conversations like these I walk away with evidence that I'm much more of a feminist than many feminists allow themselves to be.

[Rokchick]

How about every time you have sex there is a small chance that you will have to climb a mountain naked to pick the baby up from the magic fairies who deliver them. You will probably get there, but you'll have frostbite on your ***** and it will be an agonizing last few hours. The fairies will implant you with the means to feed the baby (screwing with your hormones for years). You have to do this to get those babies you want as well, remember. But if you accidentally "get" a baby order, you can cancel it and the fairies will discard the test tube.

See, there's just no real analogies

While that is much better, it still ignores the fact that in the vast majority of cases the mother's life is not being endangered (having a dolphin, or any animal's teeth around your leg for months is life threatening).

So what, it was just an analogy, and in my dolphin version your life was not in danger, you just had to stay in the water and would (probably) be alright. Just like pregnancy, there's a lot of things you can't do that you could. A lot of things you can't eat, and your status as a human being is forever changed if don't already have kids.

So your analogy only works for <7.5% of all abortion cases. The rest are due to reasons of convenience. I don't use that term to say that they're being narcissists; what I mean by that is that they are putting their lives first and not considering alternative options.

So is you wanting your normal life rather than letting the dolphin live by staying in the water for a few months. It's just for your convenience really.

What I find sad/disturbing about your post is that you seem to regard pregnancy as something inherently dangerous, something that is a negative (and always negative) consequence that has to be, but isn't, taken into account when having a healthy sex life.

No, I don't. But childbirth is more dangerous than an abortion. And a medical abortion is a lot safer than a backyard version. The easier and less complicated getting an abortion is, the safer it is.

I regard pregnancy as the natural end to a natural act that a loving partner can take part in, albeit indirectly. I regard it as an expression of one's humanity in general and femininity in particular, and to attempt to destroy that is to participate in self-denial - not the self-denial that can be beautiful in simplicity of life, but the destructive kind of self-denial where one acts more like an animal than a human being with responsibilities and a duty to the human community to foster life.

Well bully for you. I guess you never had a one night stand, or a short term relationship, or approve of relief sex, or any sex without the albeit low expectation of pregnancy. Life's not like that. You aren't the one whose body and life will be under the massive changes ahead - no, even as the father. He gets a change in his lifestyle mostly to do with added responsibilities (which, remember a lot of men try to get out of). He does not get to carry the baby or to give birth. He can get all misty eyed at the magic of childbirth, and the massive hormone fluxes that the mother goes through gives her an enormous sense of relief as well. But ask any woman, except the very few lucky ones, and it is a totally traumatizing experience for your body, and your psyche. If you want the child, it all becomes part of the deal. But you are NEVER the same again. I've done it several times. One pregnancy ended in 4 hrs in surgery, another almost killed me because I wasn't close to a hospital when I miscarried. 2 were successful. But if I had got pregnant again, I would have terminated in a heartbeat. For a lot of reasons. Some, under your rules were convenience based. My husband might have wanted more kids, but I was not prepared to have more. And it was my choice and my traumatized body.

The ironic thing is that I agree with the vast majority of things feminists have to say. However, in conversations like these I walk away with evidence that I'm much more of a feminist than many feminists allow themselves to be.

Why? Because you value the woman's ability to conceive? Whoopee. We live with it. I have no issue with any woman who wants to bring heaps of kids into the world and is prepared to give her life up to deal with the consequences. As long as the father takes on his part of the deal. Permanently. But all the feel good waffle about humanity and femininity is a very long way from your mind when you are groaning in agony or close to death (or feel like it). Or when some young girl who accidentally got pregnant can see her chosen life slipping away from her. Permanently.

[н-υ-п-т-ε-я]

Either that or people just happen to have different opinions on certain matters.

most people's opinions are based on copying others with shallow reasons, just because they share similar values.

[The Blazin1]

Lurk, you are beating a dead horse,.Rok is the kind of person who believes abortion is solely for women to decide, but expects a man to do his part when the woman decides to have the baby.

[Lurk]

How about every time you have sex there is a small chance that you will have to climb a mountain naked to pick the baby up from the magic fairies who deliver them. You will probably get there, but you'll have frostbite on your ***** and it will be an agonizing last few hours.

I would take the frostbite on my ***** for my sons. And if it meant having another kid. No problem at all. I've already taken the blue balls for several months; frostbite on my lower head for a few hours doesn't really sound like all that big a deal anymore.

And yes, blue balls actually do physically hurt. Even after "taking care of it yourself" there's still pain afterwards. Maybe not as bad as a cooter slap or menstrual cramps, but they have meds for both those things that don't take care of the former.

See, there's just no real analogies

Well, I agree with you there. That doesn't take away my right to give you **** for using stupid ones.

So is you wanting your normal life rather than letting the dolphin live by staying in the water for a few months. It's just for your convenience really.

In a sense, yes, actually. Ignoring that a human life far outweighs that of a dolphin (at least to me), I don't really see how pregnancy in and of itself (assuming adoption is considered as a legit option here in our dialogue) can destroy one's career/education/reputation as much as people that get abortions seem to imagine. But you're right, I made smart choices in my teen/college years so I can't relate on the level of hysteria and histrionics that apparently result from non-smart decisions.

No, I don't. But childbirth is more dangerous than an abortion. And a medical abortion is a lot safer than a backyard version. The easier and less complicated getting an abortion is, the safer it is.

I haven't claimed the contrary, so I'm not sure how this is relevant.

Well bully for you. I guess you never had a one night stand, or a short term relationship, or approve of relief sex, or any sex without the albeit low expectation of pregnancy. Life's not like that.

Not really. Short term relationship, sure, but again, smart decisions. And if I'd made a stupid decision I wouldn't have expected someone else to pay with their life for the comfort of my own.

And it was my choice and my traumatized body.

Meeeeee. MEEEEEEE. MEEEE. MY CHOICE. MINE.

Do you have any idea how puerile you sound right now? It's almost like Lord of the Flies. Kill the pig! Suck its blood!

Or when some young girl who accidentally got pregnant can see her chosen life slipping away from her. Permanently.

People do stupid **** all the time that causes the "chosen" ideal to "slip away" and it's only in pregnancy that someone else is expected to pay for it, both in blood in the case of the "fetus" and in money in the case of the taxpayers/insurance companies. In this case, roughly 99% of the time it's the direct result of one's deliberate actions. I could have a bit more sympathy if it were a total accident of fate. But we have to learn how to live with those consequences. That's a big part of maturity and a big part of being an adult in this sad, cruel, cold world.

All the crap that you're giving me for being "misty-eyed" or whatever, applies equally to your bull**** about this puppies-and-kittens "chosen life" that you whine about. Hardly anyone gets their "chosen life" that they dream about as a kid, and the ones that do are usually the ones with silver spoons jammed so far up their ***** that they can't eat their steak without tasting metal. It's not a bad lesson for people to learn. Especially women, who are conditioned to believe that they're all princesses or whatever.

Lurk, you are beating a dead horse,.Rok is the kind of person who believes abortion is solely for women to decide, but expects a man to do his part when the woman decides to have the baby.

Oh, I know. Her whole argument has plenty of misogynistic overtones too. We'll get to that part. I'm enjoying the ride for now.

[Rokchick]

Lurk, you are beating a dead horse,.Rok is the kind of person who believes abortion is solely for women to decide, but expects a man to do his part when the woman decides to have the baby.

Actually I don't. Or I do with riders. If the man wants the child as well, then he should do his part for the life of the child. If he didn't ever want it, then I don't think he should even see it. But if you are talking about support payments, that's usually the governmenet trying to offset its own payments. If neither wanted it, then both need to get the same deal. But they often don't.

[The Blazin1]

So, if the man doesn't want a kid, he should be allowed to have the baby aborted without consent of the woman carrying the child. Then child support is a non-issue.

[The Burninator]

All this talk and I still have yet to see a justification for why it would be that any person would be morally required to sustain the life of another out of their own life energies if they don't want to.

Points:
1) I don't believe that a fetus is as valuable as a life. A fetus is a *potential* human life. This is valuable for sure, but given the choice between saving a conscious, thinking, considering human being and an unborn child, I will take the conscious, thinking, feeling person. (And so should you -- there is always a nonzero chance that an unborn child will die in childbirth or early infancy, making the expected value greater for saving someone who has already passed these stages.)

However, for the sake of argument, it can be granted as a gift to the "pro-life" crowd that a fetus is as valuable as a person.

2) A fetus cannot survive without siphoning the life energies of its mother.

3) This relationship imposes real costs upon the mother.

4) It doesn't seem to me like anyone can say that the mother is required to bear these costs. Sure, personally I think it's better if she wants to. But on what grounds do we say it's required that she do so? There's a difference between me thinking personally that "it's praiseworthy for someone to voluntarily take on this burden," and claiming "it's required that she do so."

Even if I, personally, agreed initially on paper to supporting another life out of my own energies and at cost to myself, if I decided at any point that I could not bear those costs, I would view myself as clearly within my rights to terminate that support relationship even at the cost of the life of the one I'd agreed to support.

Again, I'd *prefer* not feeling that way; I agree that it would be better if I could continue to voluntarily bear the costs, but if this becomes not the case, I don't see how anyone else could place a legal requirement upon me to continue paying them.

TL;DR: it's incumbent upon people who think abortion ought to be illegal to show why someone supporting another at significant cost to themselves (i.e. out of their own life energy) should be legally required to do so, or even morally required to do so (recognizing that establishing that it would be praiseworthy to do so doesn't establish any kind of requirement by itself).

[Lurk]

I object to the phrase "life energies." You jack***** make it sound like it's some kind of soul-sucking Star Trek kind of alien life that came from outer space for the sole purpose of personally tearing out your entire existence. It's ******* calories for godssake. Maybe a bowl of oatmeal's worth. Most people in this country eat that on their way to work, and that's when they're not stuffing their faces with ice cream, pie, and The View after work. Plus you took conscious and deliberate actions that led to it being there in the first place. And Burn, if you're anything like the women I've slept with, you didn't just take deliberate actions. You refused to even talk to me when I got home till after I put some of my pre-fetal sugar in your bowl.

Remember, the pill is only 100% effective if you hold it between your thighs.

If you grant to the pro-life people that a fetus is/can be as valuable as a person, and then follow the rest of your line of logic, then no-one that is dependent upon another human being for survival has a right to live. I should be up for abortion since my livelihood depends upon other people. My 10 year old should be eligible to be aborted because if I chucked him out of my house he wouldn't be able to support himself. My grandmother should definitely be eligible to be aborted since she is almost completely senile and requires assistance to get food in her mouth, let alone on the table.

Anyone with debilitating illnesses should be able to be killed by their power of attorney or equivalent. Michael J. Fox's doctor should have the right to abort him should his doctor determine that it's in society's best interest.

[The Blazin1]

All this talk and I still have yet to see a justification for why it would be that any person would be morally required to sustain the life of another out of their own life energies if they don't want to.

Points:
1) I don't believe that a fetus is as valuable as a life. A fetus is a *potential* human life. This is valuable for sure, but given the choice between saving a conscious, thinking, considering human being and an unborn child, I will take the conscious, thinking, feeling person. (And so should you -- there is always a nonzero chance that an unborn child will die in childbirth or early infancy, making the expected value greater for saving someone who has already passed these stages.)

However, for the sake of argument, it can be granted as a gift to the "pro-life" crowd that a fetus is as valuable as a person.

2) A fetus cannot survive without siphoning the life energies of its mother.

3) This relationship imposes real costs upon the mother.

4) It doesn't seem to me like anyone can say that the mother is required to bear these costs. Sure, personally I think it's better if she wants to. But on what grounds do we say it's required that she do so? There's a difference between me thinking personally that "it's praiseworthy for someone to voluntarily take on this burden," and claiming "it's required that she do so."

Even if I, personally, agreed initially on paper to supporting another life out of my own energies and at cost to myself, if I decided at any point that I could not bear those costs, I would view myself as clearly within my rights to terminate that support relationship even at the cost of the life of the one I'd agreed to support.

Again, I'd *prefer* not feeling that way; I agree that it would be better if I could continue to voluntarily bear the costs, but if this becomes not the case, I don't see how anyone else could place a legal requirement upon me to continue paying them.

TL;DR: it's incumbent upon people who think abortion ought to be illegal to show why someone supporting another at significant cost to themselves (i.e. out of their own life energy) should be legally required to do so, or even morally required to do so (recognizing that establishing that it would be praiseworthy to do so doesn't establish any kind of requirement by itself).

Because they made the life, life is there. Plenty of options to prevent pregnancy. By your opinion, if the child you decided to have was seriously injured, and you decided the cost was to high for medical treatment, you should be allowed to kill it.

[Lurk]

2) A fetus cannot survive without siphoning the life energies of its mother.

3) This relationship imposes real costs upon the mother.

4) It doesn't seem to me like anyone can say that the mother is required to bear these costs. Sure, personally I think it's better if she wants to. But on what grounds do we say it's required that she do so? There's a difference between me thinking personally that "it's praiseworthy for someone to voluntarily take on this burden," and claiming "it's required that she do so."

1). A senile old broad cannot survive without siphoning the life energies (since calories and emotions = life energies in Dip****landia) of multiple people.

2). This relationship imposes real cost upon her caretakers, society, and family.

3). It doesn't seem to me that anyone can say that society/caretakers/family should be required to bear these costs. Sure, personally I think it's better if they want to. But on what grounds do we say that it's required that we do so?

[Eric Rasputin]

I thought this thread was about Obama. Guess I was wrong.

[Lurk]

I thought this thread was about Obama. Guess I was wrong.

Obama's existence is dependent upon other people's money. He's eligible too under Roklogik. But his mother was white, so not under PPlogic.

[н-υ-п-т-ε-я]

A fetus cannot survive without siphoning the life energies of its mother.

"Liberal" issue with "superficial" reason!

It's ******* calories for godssake.

"conservative" defence with "scientific" reason!
----

[The Blazin1]

Lurk, you erased that as I was replying. Why should I pay for anti-freeze when i can just pinch their oxygen tube closed. Telling me to STFU isn't very nice.