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Thread: Major changes to the T:L Forums Discussion thread

  1. #1

    Default Major changes to the T:L Forums Discussion thread

    Hey folks

    Hopefully you have read through all the HQ announcement regarding the Travian legends forum changes

    I expect you will have some comments on it so please post them here. I will take any feedback to HQ.
    CM M.Hudson
    Community Manager
    Travian: Legends US/UK

    128-10-93-85-10-128-98-112-6-6-25-126-39-1-68-78

  2. #2

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    Good idea, I like change. I like checking out new stuff and whatnot but the time the forums will be offline is too long.

  3. #3

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    I understand the logic/reasons. However, I like none of the changes.

  4. #4

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    What if WW3 starts during that time where would I have to go to read on what people are feeling about it?

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    Meherrin's Avatar
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    What kind of readability issues will there be for a user with some visual disability? The current default forum platform has high contrast text on white background. Does this new platform have super-cool low contrast that's unreadable for eyes older than 35?
    And now I'll tell you what's against us, an art that's lived for centuries. Go through the years and you will find what's blackened all of history. Against us is the law with its immensity of strength and power - against us is the law! Police know how to make a man a guilty or an innocent. Against us is the power of police! The shameless lies that men have told will ever more be paid in gold - against us is the power of the gold! Against us is racial hatred and the simple fact that we are poor.
    - The Ballad of Sacco and Vanzetti, Joan Baez

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    Consul The Burninator's Avatar
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    I like some of the changes.

    For example:
    All warnings and a possible temporary punishment history will be gone; it’s a fresh start, so make sure you profit from this chance.
    Coolsies.

    It's also interesting that the communities will all be merged into one forum. Hopefully the GenChat crowd in other forums is at least as good as it is here. (Which is to say, despite near-constant flaming, trollbait, and uncontrolled displays of racism, there are still good threads and posters here, but idk how that plays out in a wider community.)

    This I do not like, Sam I Am:
    We will move all forum threads (including all the posts in it) of the past 365 days that had at least one reply in the past 180 days.
    We will move all the forum accounts that were accessed at least once in the past 365 days
    All forum history will be stored into a read-only archive that you'll be able to access. The archive will most likely not be available immediately after the merger because we need to take care about lots of things at once, but we want to assure you that it will be accessible at some point.
    Counterpoint -- if you delete a ton of users, how will their posts be accessible in the archives?
    Counterpoint -- I've disappeared at lengths longer than 365 days and still returned.
    Counterpoint -- I like having the ability to necro old threads.

    The deletion of history is a shame.

  7. #7

    Flossie Schmumpus's Avatar
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    All change is hard, thank you for being so informative and clear about what is going on.
    Note:Any posts made by this poster should always be construed in the most innocent angelic way possible. The poster is not responsible for where your depraved minds go, if you have a depraved mind.

    Our Lady of Croppers ~Semper DOS~ ~Viva Toons~ || This area intentionally left blank. || The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity ~ Harlan Ellison

  8. #8

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    Wall of text incoming.

    tl:dr I'm doing everything I can to make the migration as smooth and painless as possible. If you have concerns email me or poke me on skype.

    Quote Originally Posted by ArabChuckNorris View Post
    Good idea, I like change. I like checking out new stuff and whatnot but the time the forums will be offline is too long.

    I agree and questioned that. The reason for the long delay is that its not especially easy to migrate from vb to burning board due to the age of our vb suite, the size of the databases needing to be merged (10+ years of posts and attachments mean itís a massive task even pruning down to the set limits to be migrated) and ultimately HQ and Woltlabs themselves donít know how quick or slow it will be.
    It is hoped the time will be less than stated if the migration goes smoothly, then there will be a period of time for me and the mod team to re-assemble the forum. Effectively everything will get dumped into one big bucket for each domain, albeit threads will be grouped by originating forum.
    I will then have to verify each thread IE it meets the set of rules used on the new forum and move it into its correct location.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    I understand the logic/reasons. However, I like none of the changes.
    Some of the changes I know will not be popular, some things the CM team has already got HQ to remove or change the plans to lessen the impact on the community.

    Quote Originally Posted by Meherrin View Post
    What kind of readability issues will there be for a user with some visual disability? The current default forum platform has high contrast text on white background. Does this new platform have super-cool low contrast that's unreadable for eyes older than 35?

    Good question, I donít know the answer so I will ask HQ for a response on this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Burninator View Post
    I like some of the changes.

    For example:

    Coolsies.

    It's also interesting that the communities will all be merged into one forum. Hopefully the GenChat crowd in other forums is at least as good as it is here. (Which is to say, despite near-constant flaming, trollbait, and uncontrolled displays of racism, there are still good threads and posters here, but idk how that plays out in a wider community.)
    The flaming, trollbait and such will have to stop. I have been quite lenient on the general chat area as explained in September last year to lessen the impact of the rules changes. Now that leniency will have to stop as we migrate to the merged forum with a single set of rules and multiple CMís over seeing it. Swearing, trolling, and inappropriate discussions (including politics) will have to end as they are against HQs policyís.
    There will be no DLZ, or dump.
    The tavern section wonít have a post count Ė we do value our community and we also like chit-chat, but we do not think this directly contributes to Travian life, therefore we decided to remove the post count and activity points in this section.
    From that read that HQ want better management and control over general chat as they donít see it as contributing to the company image. Things will get much stricter especially as the forum will be overseen by other CMís, SCMs and HQ staff.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Burninator View Post
    This I do not like, Sam I Am:


    Counterpoint -- if you delete a ton of users, how will their posts be accessible in the archives?
    Counterpoint -- I've disappeared at lengths longer than 365 days and still returned.
    Counterpoint -- I like having the ability to necro old threads.

    The deletion of history is a shame.
    The wording HQ has used is not clear.
    To be clear this forum will be frozen on the 16 th July and put into maintenance mode.
    The posts that meet HQs criteria will be merged into the new database the forum as it currently is will be preserved in a backup for restoration as a read only archive at a later date.
    This was an area that I discussed at length as the original HQ plan was to just delete old stuff. To me loosing 10+ years of domain history was not acceptable and I said as much during the HQ/CM planning meeting. Since then we have been assured that the forum data will be retained as an archive to be put somewhere at a later date so people can read back. I donít know the details on the archive yet as HQ are still working on a sollution that is acceptable to both them and the global community.
    Users who have not logged in for 365 days will not be moved to the new forum but when the backup is loaded into an archive you will still be able to look at old accounts and posts, they just wont be linked to the new forum in anyway.
    Over the next few weeks I will be moving everything that does not meet HQís migration policy to the archive. If you think a thread should be retained on the new forum I will consider each case by exception. Please email me to discuss further at cm@travian.us or skype hudsonm856 (please state you are from the US forum when you add me as a contact otherwise you might get declined)
    I will also be talking with the moderators and ambassadors to ensure key threads are retained even if they do not adhear to HQs policy, this is again by exception.



    Quote Originally Posted by Flossie Schmumpus View Post
    All change is hard, thank you for being so informative and clear about what is going on.
    I will happily stretch HQs rules to explain something if I feel its important for the community to understand why something is happening. That said please understand I cant explain everything in detail due to confidentiality clauses in my contract
    CM M.Hudson
    Community Manager
    Travian: Legends US/UK

    128-10-93-85-10-128-98-112-6-6-25-126-39-1-68-78

  9. #9
    Villager BlackBlade's Avatar
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    I am not surprised at this given Kingdoms has been using Burning Board. For those interested here is the link. While I'm sure it will have some uniqueness to it, I think it at least gives us an idea of what to expect.

    The integration of the communities to a single forum is important for the future, particularly with the Tournament system. I can invision additional changes related to the game once the forums are complete that will bring us closer together and create a more cohesive system. Travian is not the same game it was in 2005, and while it has made improvements and misteps over the years each change has been more of a tack on. This will wipe the board clean and integrate what is now a global community and I think it will improve the experience in the end. (Assuming HQ is listening to our wants and needs, the April Fools Annoucement while in poor taste at least suggests they are)

    I predicted the difficulites in retaining the old and I am glad they opted for the archive route. Deletion as you said would be simply unacceptable.

    Hudson -
    1. What changes in the rules might we expect? / When might we get to see them?

    2. The way I read your post, political discussions will be banned entirely? That seems rather severe a course of action. I get why they would rather avoid it, as it can quickly devolve into undesirable actions. However politics is what I would describe as a major topic area and I feel those who wish to discuss it should be allowed to. Of course as an American I probably have a broader interpertation of Free Speech than many of those working in HQ. (Who I assume tend to be German or European) While I don't engage in political discussion here, I believe those who wish to deserve the ability to do so. The concern for the "company image" is all well and good but frankly the ability of the community to interact and engage with each other on subjects other than Travian is vital to a vibrant and dedicated community. Travian is a fun game but I stay for the people and the connections I make with them. I think the removal of political discussions decreases the subject matter severly on what might be discussed in an open forum and as a result hurt existing connections and block future ones from forming.

    Edit:
    As a side note, it doesn't seem cost effective to keep all of the CM's. This is especially true regarding English domains (currently 6 by my count). There isn't exactly a huge amount of players between them. At my last count in Feb. I counted 36,626 between the 6 domains. A farcry from the days the U.S Domain peaked over 100k. So will any of the CM's be let go, have a change in roles etc.? More specifrically I am concerned about your job since you are fantastic in your role and TG needs more people like you. The same concern might extend to the Mod team as well, though I'm not familiar with the compensation structure if any.

    Though this does bring up a third point and obviously you can only say so much, but might this indicate the merging of domains in some fashion? Whether it means restructuring them all to .COM, while perhaps retaining some national servers instead of entire domains or something else entirely? It would seem like the next logical step after forum intergration would be some change in how domains / servers and the tournament works.
    Last edited by BlackBlade; 06-22-2017 at 07:29 PM.
    The Wicked Defense General

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackBlade View Post
    I am not surprised at thisgiven Kingdoms has been using Burning Board. For those interested here is the link. While I'm sure itwill have some uniqueness to it, I think it at least gives us an idea of whatto expect.

    The integration of the communities to a single forum is important for thefuture, particularly with the Tournament system. I can invision additionalchanges related to the game once the forums are complete that will bring uscloser together and create a more cohesive system. Travian is not the same gameit was in 2005, and while it has made improvements and misteps over the yearseach change has been more of a tack on. This will wipe the board clean andintegrate what is now a global community and I think it will improve theexperience in the end. (Assuming HQ is listening to our wants and needs, theApril Fools Annoucement while in poor taste at least suggests they are)

    I predicted the difficulites in retaining the old and I am glad they opted forthe archive route. Deletion as you said would be simply unacceptable.

    Hudson -
    1. What changes in the rules might we expect? / When might we get to see them?

    2. The way I read your post, political discussions will be banned entirely?That seems rather severe a course of action. I get why they would rather avoidit, as it can quickly devolve into undesirable actions. However politics iswhat I would describe as a major topic area and I feel those who wish todiscuss it should be allowed to. Of course as an American I probably have abroader interpertation of Free Speech than many of those working in HQ. (Who Iassume tend to be German or European) While I don't engage in politicaldiscussion here, I believe those who wish to deserve the ability to do so. Theconcern for the "company image" is all well and good but frankly theability of the community to interact and engage with each other on subjectsother than Travian is vital to a vibrant and dedicated community. Travian is afun game but I stay for the people and the connections I make with them. Ithink the removal of political discussions decreases the subject matter severlyon what might be discussed in an open forum and as a result hurt existingconnections and block future ones from forming.


    I cant speak of future plans but I can assure you that as a contracted HQ representative I do listen and feedback the community’s thoughts, wishesand often the rants as well. HQ respond on a weekly basis although many of thediscussions are internal your comments are well represented. I cant always get them to agree to changes but I have had some success in getting things changed (allowing relaxed rule for US gen chat,retaining an archive for the current forum being two such instances where HQhave changed things based on points I raised)

    The rules are basically what we already use for the USforum (Excluding GenChat) and can be found at the top of the forum on the navbar.
    The reason for a ban on politics is that HQ has beenbanned from a number of country’s in the past due to comments made on forums.(iran I believe was one such domain in the past that had issues). It is common for company’s across the worldto restrict what is posted on their forums. HQ own the forum and its provided on a grace and favor basis IE it doesnot make money and they can remove it/anything they don’t want.
    In this day and age of SEO what is posted on a companyforum is important. Some of the more extreme views and comments do appear onsearch engines and that is an issue to the company. Previous crew members will remember thisbeing raised previously as an issue on US where HQ did a review of all domainsand found issues. This is why we now have the two-account system for crewmembers.
    As it stands HQs policy is the new forum is not the placefor real-world politics it’s a game forum not reddit or other such discussionarenas. I get both sides of the argument and perhaps once things have settledon the new forum then we can renegotiate the rules.
    CM M.Hudson
    Community Manager
    Travian: Legends US/UK

    128-10-93-85-10-128-98-112-6-6-25-126-39-1-68-78

  11. #11
    Villager BlackBlade's Avatar
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    I do see your point. From a financial perspective it does make a lot of sense to ban political discussions otherwise they face banning in potential markets and losing on a large customer base. While I don't know how large Iran is in terms of potential Travian players, China is an obvious market that has similar censorship measures on political issues. The potential loss of players is greatly outweighed by the size of those markets.

    By integrating the communities you also need to standarize rules, and when the communities have different values, norms and laws that can result in changes being made that might offend some. Some might hold a grudge about the issue but in the grand scheme it is a small thing, this isn't Reddit as you said. (Or any other social media platform etc.) Hopefully those who currently engage in political discussions opt to forgive.

    Thank you as always for the detailed response, the level of communication you provide definitely makes any changes etc. easier on the community.

    P.S - I assumed I wouldn't get the answers about the future but it never hurts to ask. You might slip up
    Last edited by BlackBlade; 06-22-2017 at 08:13 PM.
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    Consul The Burninator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CM M.Hudson View Post
    There will be no DLZ, or dump.
    Will the funny picture thread vanish? That thread is the tops.

    Will we still be allowed to play Mafia?
    Quote Originally Posted by CM M.Hudson View Post
    The tavern section won’t have a post count – we do value our community and we also like chit-chat, but we do not think this directly contributes to Travian life, therefore we decided to remove the post count and activity points in this section.
    Will I get to keep my perks -- inbox size and the like -- from having so many posts and so much rep?
    Quote Originally Posted by CM M.Hudson View Post
    From that read that HQ want better management and control over general chat as they don’t see it as contributing to the company image. Things will get much stricter especially as the forum will be overseen by other CM’s, SCMs and HQ staff.
    Good. That section has been out of hand.

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    @BlackTiger - thank you for the link. I see they have indeed chosen a forum platform that reduces the contrast between text and background, though it is still readable, with a bit more effort. It could be worse.

    Grumble, grumble, kids on my lawn, grumble.
    And now I'll tell you what's against us, an art that's lived for centuries. Go through the years and you will find what's blackened all of history. Against us is the law with its immensity of strength and power - against us is the law! Police know how to make a man a guilty or an innocent. Against us is the power of police! The shameless lies that men have told will ever more be paid in gold - against us is the power of the gold! Against us is racial hatred and the simple fact that we are poor.
    - The Ballad of Sacco and Vanzetti, Joan Baez

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Burninator View Post
    Will the funny picture thread vanish? That thread is the tops.

    Will we still be allowed to play Mafia?

    Will I get to keep my perks -- inbox size and the like -- from having so many posts and so much rep?

    Good. That section has been out of hand.
    The picture thread does not meet HQ criteria for migration due to its age, it may be possible to save it however given the size and number of images in the thread it may not migrate successfully anyway.

    No all perks you have here will be gone. Everyone will have only the HQ proscribed inbox etc. Post count will only be based on the posts migrated and reputation will cease to exist in its current form (I believe there is some kind of activity point system based on being scored for top answer in Q&A and post likes)

    Quote Originally Posted by Meherrin View Post
    @BlackTiger - thank you for the link. I see they have indeed chosen a forum platform that reduces the contrast between text and background, though it is still readable, with a bit more effort. It could be worse.

    Grumble, grumble, kids on my lawn, grumble.
    T:L forum will not be the same as T:K due to having different artwork and color scheme.

    I have asked HQ to comment on high contrast style option which I believe may be a requirement under Current German law.
    Also because T:L uses multi-lingual settings you shouldn't see all the other language posts, just the languages you subscribe to. (EN[defaults to UK], EN-US, EN-COM, EN-AU DE etc)
    CM M.Hudson
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  15. #15

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    • All the account names will get the country tag as a suffix in order to avoid duplicates. You will then be able to change your nickname into a new one if you like.
    • We will merge all forum accounts from different communities that have the same email (all the threads/posts will be merged), so if you have accounts on more than one Travian: Legends forum, please make sure you use the same email with them, as you won’t be allowed to use more then one account on the new forum and it won’t be possible to merge them anymore after we started the process.
    When it comes to the account merging, I take it this means we get to pick the username of the merged account?

    The tavern section won’t have a post count – we do value our community and we also like chit-chat, but we do not think this directly contributes to Travian life, therefore we decided to remove the post count and activity points in this section.
    Quote Originally Posted by CM M.Hudson View Post
    They don’t see general chat as contributing to the company image.
    I disagree with these sentiments.
    In my experience, and I'm sure the experience of many other long time users here, Gen Chat is where we tend to move after periods of game play. A number of us do return to playing after a break. I know I have and Burn has indicated in this thread he is also the same. To disregard our experience and the potentiality of return may drive the stake into those of us who may have otherwise considered dipping our toes back in the water at a later date.

    To use another example, the vast majority of my posts and rep come from the T&P subforum yet I would not be recognised with this change. How much longer would it have taken for you to identify the potential I was able to represent if this recognition wasn't there prior? I used myself for this particular example yet I feel a larger portion of our older community are also in this situation.

    A different comparison that can be made is the only active Ambassador that gained their position primarily from the Embassies are Lord Bane and Tivon (and Tivon has no recent activity other than logging in and out). Tineren gained his recognition from Q&A. Woden, Valynor, Dan Chak and myself were recognised for T&P. Flossie and Meherrin were more rounded overall. This change basically says that only one of these people is valued by TG and that is Lord Bane.
    Would this fit in line with the current and future vision you had for the Ambassador usergroup?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Burninator View Post
    Good. That section has been out of hand.
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Burninator View Post
    Will the funny picture thread vanish? That thread is the tops.
    The way I interpret it, no it won't vanish although the content will be come available for all to view. Still, clarification would be grand.

    EDIT: I see this was touched on before I finished my post. I would recommend this thread be migrated even if all the links don't work. IMO, it is one of the best threads on the forum for a number of reasons.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Burninator View Post
    Will we still be allowed to play Mafia?
    .com should serve as a decent example of what we can and cannot do when it comes to the scope of the rules. They have a games section there where Mafia would fit. My intuition says yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Burninator View Post
    Will I get to keep my perks -- inbox size and the like -- from having so many posts and so much rep?
    This is something I've been wondering about.
    I would think that rep could be treated as a +1 / -1 which would be representative of like and dislike. I only saw indication of likes being implemented which to me signals -rep would disappear.
    No idea if that is how it is being done but it is the way I would imagine it happening.

    As for the perks, I've only read that everyone would be grouped into the same user class. Whether that means everyone becomes the equivalent of a Consul, I'm unsure. With how .com is, it leads me to think it will be the case.

    EDIT: I see this was also touched on. In that case, what are the base HQ proscribed privileges?
    Last edited by Scarecrow; 06-22-2017 at 10:46 PM.

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  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow View Post
    When it comes to the account merging, I take it this means we get to pick the username of the merged account?
    You get to choose between your existing usernames.



    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow View Post
    I disagree with these sentiments.
    In my experience, and I'm sure the experience of many other long time users here, Gen Chat is where we tend to move after periods of game play. A number of us do return to playing after a break. I know I have and Burn has indicated in this thread he is also the same. To disregard our experience and the potentiality of return may drive the stake into those of us who may have otherwise considered dipping our toes back in the water at a later date.

    To use another example, the vast majority of my posts and rep come from the T&P subforum yet I would not be recognised with this change. How much longer would it have taken for you to identify the potential I was able to represent if this recognition wasn't there prior? I used myself for this particular example yet I feel a larger portion of our older community are also in this situation.

    A different comparison that can be made is the only active Ambassador that gained their position primarily from the Embassies are Lord Bane and Tivon (and Tivon has no recent activity other than logging in and out). Tineren gained his recognition from Q&A. Woden, Valynor, Dan Chak and myself were recognised for T&P. Flossie and Meherrin were more rounded overall. This change basically says that only one of these people is valued by TG and that is Lord Bane.
    Would this fit in line with the current and future vision you had for the Ambassador usergroup?
    HQ have said they plan on a single user group of registered user, I am trying to encourage keeping a senior/ambassador group but its unlikely that will happen before migration which makes this point outside of their scope.
    90% of issues (spam etc) on global forums occur in the genchat/games area so HQ have come up with a solution to prevent spam and contentious issues. I'm not saying its the right decision but its unlikely to change before the migration. It will be fed back to HQ for consideration and hopefully this will change in future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow View Post
    The way I interpret it, no it won't vanish although the content will be come available for all to view. Still, clarification would be grand.

    EDIT: I see this was touched on before I finished my post. I would recommend this thread be migrated even if all the links don't work. IMO, it is one of the best threads on the forum for a number of reasons.
    Due to image sizes and number of images its possible the thread will break on migration leaving a useless jumble of broken attachment links -- But that's a worse case scenario. I will wait for sysadmins to advise on the maximum limits on thread migration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow View Post
    .com should serve as a decent example of what we can and cannot do when it comes to the scope of the rules. They have a games section there where Mafia would fit. My intuition says yes.
    I see no reason for mafia (or WvV as other domains call it) not to continue. We may need to archive old rounds once they end (there will be continual maintenance on the new forum to prune and archive old posts/threads)

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow View Post

    This is something I've been wondering about.
    I would think that rep could be treated as a +1 / -1 which would be representative of like and dislike. I only saw indication of likes being implemented which to me signals -rep would disappear.
    No idea if that is how it is being done but it is the way I would imagine it happening.

    As for the perks, I've only read that everyone would be grouped into the same user class. Whether that means everyone becomes the equivalent of a Consul, I'm unsure. With how .com is, it leads me to think it will be the case.

    EDIT: I see this was also touched on. In that case, what are the base HQ proscribed privileges?
    From what I have seen there will be no negative rep system. Much like facebook you can give someone a like and then remove it but you cant take something you haven't given in the first place. The points will be on a sliding scale I believe with more points given for a correct answer in the Q&A section than for someone likening your post. More details will be released in future announcements.

    HQ have not released information on user accounts, this should come in a future update but I agree it should be somewhere equivalent to consul level (that how UK works anyway)
    CM M.Hudson
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  17. #17
    Artisan Kerzi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CM M.Hudson View Post
    [
    The tavern section won’t have a post count – we do value our community and we also like chit-chat, but we do not think this directly contributes to Travian life, therefore we decided to remove the post count and activity points in this section.
    From that read that HQ want better management and control over general chat as they don’t see it as contributing to the company image. Things will get much stricter especially as the forum will be overseen by other CM’s, SCMs and HQ staff.
    I have more of a problem with this than any other change (although I am a bit peeved about the loss of rep and those who will lose their rank titles).

    This IS the problem a lot of us have been complaining about for years. TG doesn't get it. We don't play this game because TRAVIAN! At the end of the day, we play this game because of the friends we make.

    I get that they have a self-perceived 'image' to uphold. Not all of these new rules and processes, however, relate directly to that. The stated reasons are counter-intuitive: chit chat does not contribute directly to Travian Life? Chit Chat IS Travian life. It is the tie that bonds us, after each round ends. It is what keeps us going mid way through a long round when we want to quit because we are simply exhausted. It IS why we play.

    The relationships we make keep this game alive. The forum, the game? Simply the restaurant we choose to visit on our 'date', because we share the same taste in food. Change the quality or taste of the restaurant too much for the worse, OUR perceived worse and NOT management's, and we simply go elsewhere to eat.
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  18. #18

    Meherrin's Avatar
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    Mafia may be ok. What about the RPGs?

    I'm also concerned about certain issues that may be forced on us by the laws of other countries. I understand that political posts will be out. Ok, i can talk politics elsewhere. But. I'm drawing on the recent experience of LiveJournal, where I had an archived account, recently being overhauled by the Russian owners.

    In many of the countries in which Travian is played, being gay is illegal. If, in a post that is not political in intent, I should happen to mention that my good friend Nancy and her wife came to visit, would that be deemed something inappropriate? Or if I shoukd mention that I myself am bisexual?

    How restricted will we be by TG's desire to offend no one?
    And now I'll tell you what's against us, an art that's lived for centuries. Go through the years and you will find what's blackened all of history. Against us is the law with its immensity of strength and power - against us is the law! Police know how to make a man a guilty or an innocent. Against us is the power of police! The shameless lies that men have told will ever more be paid in gold - against us is the power of the gold! Against us is racial hatred and the simple fact that we are poor.
    - The Ballad of Sacco and Vanzetti, Joan Baez

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerzi View Post
    I have more of a problem with this than any other change (although I am a bit peeved about the loss of rep and those who will lose their rank titles).

    This IS the problem a lot of us have been complaining about for years. TG doesn't get it. We don't play this game because TRAVIAN! At the end of the day, we play this game because of the friends we make.

    I get that they have a self-perceived 'image' to uphold. Not all of these new rules and processes, however, relate directly to that. The stated reasons are counter-intuitive: chit chat does not contribute directly to Travian Life? Chit Chat IS Travian life. It is the tie that bonds us, after each round ends. It is what keeps us going mid way through a long round when we want to quit because we are simply exhausted. It IS why we play.

    The relationships we make keep this game alive. The forum, the game? Simply the restaurant we choose to visit on our 'date', because we share the same taste in food. Change the quality or taste of the restaurant too much for the worse, OUR perceived worse and NOT management's, and we simply go elsewhere to eat.
    That was a much better way of articulating what I was trying to get across.
    I came about it the wrong way by using Ambassadors as examples so it appeared I was speaking more about user groups than the value that T&P holds.

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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by CM M.Hudson View Post
    Everyone will have only the HQ proscribed inbox etc.


    I'll take this back iff "the HQ proscribed inbox" is no smaller than my current inbox.

    Takes lots of PMs to play mafia.

    Also, I like my signature.

  21. #21

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    We're an American forum. We have a fiercely "freedom of speech/expression" ingrained in us. Reading genchat makes my blood boil at times, but I support everyone's right to post opinions there. I stated earlier I understand the reasons/logic. And I do. But this feels controlling. And as the Travian number of players recede to almost nothing, and they drop after each time TG makes changes to the game/forum - I am calling it now: this will be the death knell.

    I delve into the past of Travian at times on the forums. Looking up obsolete servers, seeing the names of people who once graced this game. Remembering when I first played and how much fun it was. I hate to see so much of the history disappear.

    We Americans are crass and obnoxious at times, surely. But we know who we are. And if other worlds of Travian don't like our little section of it, then they don't have to click on it to see our political ramblings, etc.

    My two cents.

  22. #22

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    Apparently I must spread some Reputation around before giving more to Hermes.

    What he said goes for the Canadians here too, I believe. Well, maybe not the crass and obnoxious bit (j/k) but certainly the desire to speak freely.
    And now I'll tell you what's against us, an art that's lived for centuries. Go through the years and you will find what's blackened all of history. Against us is the law with its immensity of strength and power - against us is the law! Police know how to make a man a guilty or an innocent. Against us is the power of police! The shameless lies that men have told will ever more be paid in gold - against us is the power of the gold! Against us is racial hatred and the simple fact that we are poor.
    - The Ballad of Sacco and Vanzetti, Joan Baez

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    We're an American forum. We have a fiercely "freedom of speech/expression" ingrained in us. Reading genchat makes my blood boil at times, but I support everyone's right to post opinions there. I stated earlier I understand the reasons/logic. And I do. But this feels controlling. And as the Travian number of players recede to almost nothing, and they drop after each time TG makes changes to the game/forum - I am calling it now: this will be the death knell.

    I delve into the past of Travian at times on the forums. Looking up obsolete servers, seeing the names of people who once graced this game. Remembering when I first played and how much fun it was. I hate to see so much of the history disappear.

    We Americans are crass and obnoxious at times, surely. But we know who we are. And if other worlds of Travian don't like our little section of it, then they don't have to click on it to see our political ramblings, etc.

    My two cents.
    This is a German owned, hosted and managed forum for a German game that just happens to be for the American domain. It is not an American forum. There is no entitlement to a forum, its not included as part of the requirements in the T&C but is given as a grace and favour facility that they manage and control.

    There were two options available to HQ. Remove forums entirely due to the security and data protection risk OR find a solution that meets German law and proves the safest way to allow game discussion to continue.

    Travian have made clear that political topics belong on other discussion boards not their game forums. This is no different from a whole myriad of other game company forums. All discussion of politics is already prohibited and can be removed already anyway under the T&C, HQ have just decided to take more control over the forums and start to enforce the rules and T&C equally across all domains.

    History will be preserved as I have said many times in the form of a read only archive site not linked to the new forum.
    CM M.Hudson
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  24. #24
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    I too am disappointed about the lack of a General Chat and find it concerning. Others have expressed the reasoning much more elegantly than I ever could.

    On the other hand, I'm glad my 5years old infraction will finally go away.
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  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meherrin View Post
    Mafia may be ok. What about the RPGs?

    I'm also concerned about certain issues that may be forced on us by the laws of other countries. I understand that political posts will be out. Ok, i can talk politics elsewhere. But. I'm drawing on the recent experience of LiveJournal, where I had an archived account, recently being overhauled by the Russian owners.

    In many of the countries in which Travian is played, being gay is illegal. If, in a post that is not political in intent, I should happen to mention that my good friend Nancy and her wife came to visit, would that be deemed something inappropriate? Or if I shoukd mention that I myself am bisexual?

    How restricted will we be by TG's desire to offend no one?

    The rules are the ones already enforced on the rest of the US forum areas there are no surprises here as its the standard global rule (without the exception I negotiated for US GenChat to allow some of the discussions here to soften the blow of the new rule set last year.)
    If being gay is an issue then HQ will need to find themselves a new CM


    Quote Originally Posted by ECH0 View Post
    I too am disappointed about the lack of a General Chat and find it concerning. Others have expressed the reasoning much more elegantly than I ever could.

    On the other hand, I'm glad my 5years old infraction will finally go away.
    There will still be GenChat (Tavern will be the new name) but it will be more managed and controlled. There will still be RPG and Games but the must follow the global forum rule.

    Yes there will be no post count in that area but it will still exist. Yes some of the more extreme discussions here will have to stop but technically they should never have happened here either.
    Many domains already don't have post count for games areas for example so this is globally not a major alteration.

    Once things have settled down on the new forum I hope to be able to get more leeway on how I manage the US area but for now we/I have to stick to the policy that HQ has set out.

    From HQs point of view they are trying to find middle ground between all the domains, an almost impossible task in my view. I cant promise a return of ranks, ambassadors, relaxed rules or other things that will be missing but I can promise I will fight your corner to try to get those things back. But those fights can only happen after the migration is completed as HQ will not majorly change their plans before hand.
    CM M.Hudson
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  26. #26

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    I know it's a German game. The forum says .us in the title, hence my argument this is an American forum.

    Let's be clear here. The forum is included as perk to entice more people to play Travian. Because the more people that play, the more money they make. And certainly Germans accept American money. Once again, the logic of your response is irrefutable, but it feels like a tyrannical, controlling mandate. The forum may not be an entitlement, as you point out, but it is vital to keep people paying to play.

    Also, you have been clear about the read only archive, and that is appreciated. I'm just skeptical that with so many accounts from those many years ago not being included in the new forum that those archives may be incomplete.

    Thank you, truly, for letting us air our concerns - and for sticking up for us with HQ. We're not the most docile group, and you have been patient with us.

  27. #27

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    Honestly, whether it's a German forum or an American forum doesn't matter. It's extremely rare for any official game forum to allow Rellgion/Sex/Politics chat, regardless of the nationality of the ownership. There are plenty of private forums for that. Sure, they're taking away a privilege, but it's a privelege that has never existed on most official forums.
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  28. #28

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    To be honest our Gen chat has been a *****how for a while. (I can still curse here right). So as our fearless leader would say we need to establish "Law & Order"

    Make the Forum great again!

    Also maybe they should look to consolidate the servers also if they are consilidating forums. Unless they make more money from a bunch a small servers rather than big servers. Which is a short term benefit for the company.

    However everyone in the

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foley View Post
    To be honest our Gen chat has been a *****how for a while. (I can still curse here right). So as our fearless leader would say we need to establish "Law & Order"

    Make the Forum great again!

    Also maybe they should look to consolidate the servers also if they are consilidating forums. Unless they make more money from a bunch a small servers rather than big servers. Which is a short term benefit for the company.

    However everyone in the
    I'd love to see an end to trolling and insults. That's not my issue.

    This - the forum - is a place where I relax with friends and acquaintances from the game. There are a lot of things that happen here beyond trolling, and even reasonable discussion of current events and politics, that i'm afraid will be lost. The games. I've just started an RPG that three of us at the least are having fun with. Will RPGs be allowed? Matt has said several times that TG places littke value on "the tavern" - I'm not sure exactly what that is, but I think it's all of Talk and Play, and there's more to that area than the trollfests of Gen Chat. Lots of people like playing Mafia. Lots of people have contributed to my genchat's favourite films series of threads. Sone of Kabooja's art has been posted in the RPG section. We just started a Travian Cookbook thread with some pretty interesting ideas I'd like to see kept around. People like posting funny pictures. Will there even be a place for things like this, or is it supposed to be nothing but Travian? I talk about what happens in the rounds I play, but I do other things too, with this community. Are we going to be losing some or all of the things that make this an i teresting community to be engaged with when we're not playing Travian?
    And now I'll tell you what's against us, an art that's lived for centuries. Go through the years and you will find what's blackened all of history. Against us is the law with its immensity of strength and power - against us is the law! Police know how to make a man a guilty or an innocent. Against us is the power of police! The shameless lies that men have told will ever more be paid in gold - against us is the power of the gold! Against us is racial hatred and the simple fact that we are poor.
    - The Ballad of Sacco and Vanzetti, Joan Baez

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meherrin View Post
    I'd love to see an end to trolling and insults. That's not my issue.

    This - the forum - is a place where I relax with friends and acquaintances from the game. There are a lot of things that happen here beyond trolling, and even reasonable discussion of current events and politics, that i'm afraid will be lost. The games. I've just started an RPG that three of us at the least are having fun with. Will RPGs be allowed? Matt has said several times that TG places littke value on "the tavern" - I'm not sure exactly what that is, but I think it's all of Talk and Play, and there's more to that area than the trollfests of Gen Chat. Lots of people like playing Mafia. Lots of people have contributed to my genchat's favourite films series of threads. Sone of Kabooja's art has been posted in the RPG section. We just started a Travian Cookbook thread with some pretty interesting ideas I'd like to see kept around. People like posting funny pictures. Will there even be a place for things like this, or is it supposed to be nothing but Travian? I talk about what happens in the rounds I play, but I do other things too, with this community. Are we going to be losing some or all of the things that make this an i teresting community to be engaged with when we're not playing Travian?
    I'm speaking more about the trolling and politics. It seems ad thoigh everything you mentioned will be staying . They have no reason to remove that, but I understand the need to censor more.

  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meherrin View Post
    I'd love to see an end to trolling and insults. That's not my issue.

    This - the forum - is a place where I relax with friends and acquaintances from the game. There are a lot of things that happen here beyond trolling, and even reasonable discussion of current events and politics, that i'm afraid will be lost. The games. I've just started an RPG that three of us at the least are having fun with. Will RPGs be allowed? Matt has said several times that TG places littke value on "the tavern" - I'm not sure exactly what that is, but I think it's all of Talk and Play, and there's more to that area than the trollfests of Gen Chat. Lots of people like playing Mafia. Lots of people have contributed to my genchat's favourite films series of threads. Sone of Kabooja's art has been posted in the RPG section. We just started a Travian Cookbook thread with some pretty interesting ideas I'd like to see kept around. People like posting funny pictures. Will there even be a place for things like this, or is it supposed to be nothing but Travian? I talk about what happens in the rounds I play, but I do other things too, with this community. Are we going to be losing some or all of the things that make this an i teresting community to be engaged with when we're not playing Travian?
    As I have said previously.

    Quote Originally Posted by CM M.Hudson View Post
    There will still be GenChat (Tavern will be the new name) but it will be more managed and controlled. There will still be RPG and Games but the must follow the global forum rule.

    Yes there will be no post count in that area but it will still exist. Yes some of the more extreme discussions here will have to stop but technically they should never have happened here either.
    Much of the stuff currently in talk and play will be possible in the tavern, HQ don't want to stop that just manage it better to stop the inappropriate content and discussions currently found across the globe in the gen chat areas (or equivalently named areas).

    Yes there will be no post count but that's not that unusual across Travian as many forums stopped post count in that area anyway. Since this forum does not have post count in the dump its not a massive stretch to extend that to the gen chat area either.


    Once again I will also say what is currently on this forum, user accounts, threads and posts will get frozen in time by a backup on the 16th and will be uploaded to an archive site in the future. Nothing will be lost or altered from that backup.
    the LIVE database will get pruned and migrated but the BACKUP will be frozen and restored on a backup archive site one all the migrations have ended.
    CM M.Hudson
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  32. #32
    Consul Lurk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meherrin View Post
    I'd love to see an end to trolling and insults. That's not my issue.
    Since I don't really post anymore, it's not really my issue either. However the fact that "trolling and insults" constitutes roughly 85% of all the current, recent posts in the GC area this is an issue that will have to be addressed. I strongly suspect that the Tavern area will not be frequented all that much. Whether or not the other areas get more activity really depends on TG's ability/motivation to create a better game mechanic than what we have now. It's a "if you build it, they will come" kind of situation; the major issue at hand is that "it" is a more attractive game that allows its players to have a life. Honestly the time/energy investment in this game is in some ways more intensive than EVE online.

    No idea where cofc and Rokchick will go to have their crap-flinging contests, but it's fortunate that that won't be our problem anymore.

    Hudson, the reality is that regardless of domain people will always push the line. That's how it is. I learned that as a, in many respects, much younger man in the co-admin spot here. It's part of being human and it's part of what put this species at the top of the food chain. We'll always have a natural drive to go outside the box. You can see it in any country anywhere without regard to how "tyrannical" the regime is. People push the line in the U.S. where freedoms are very broad compared to other first-world countries just as they push the line in places like Iran and China. The question that I think people here are secretly asking is whether HQ is going to respond to that completely human tendency with a hard line or an understanding one. Given their history with the company there's reason to suspect which tack they'll take. More's the pity.
    Last edited by Lurk; 06-23-2017 at 04:05 PM.
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  33. #33

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    I agree that the question one where the red line is drawn and how crossing it should be responded to is key.

    Sometimes its stated there is a red line but then no punishment for crossing it and other times the punishment perhaps is too severe.

    At this time I don't know what the report/infraction system will look like or how it will be used/enforced.

    Having seen a mockup of the new forum I can say that it wont be like kingdoms or the other merged forums at TG. What you should see is almost identical to this forum providing you select the correct multi-lingual settings you shouldn't see other domains posts/thread unless you select those languages.

    This suggests to me that I will still have a say over the way this little corner of the merged forum is run and managed but those details wont come out until the next management meeting just before the migration happens.

    As a community we will need to restrain ourselves a little more since HQ now will have direct oversight of the forum rather than the current way of just viewing it as a public user. There will be greater expectation for the rules to more closely followed. The question is where that line is drawn.
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  34. #34

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    Thabk you for the clarification, Matt. i think maybe we've been talking past each other, at least in part. I don't really care about post count, I post all over the place, and there are no perks for high posters anymore anyway. I just want my Lounges and my games and a getting to know you place as well as a place to discuss in-game strategy and BRs and what people think of the various alliances' chances. And the other services, like question and answer and announcements and such.

    Lurk, you might be surprised by the number of people who have told me that they stay away from the forums, and GenChat in particular, because of the amount of trolling and personal insults. Some of us have been trying to lure them back with the promise of non-political threads, and some have come.
    And now I'll tell you what's against us, an art that's lived for centuries. Go through the years and you will find what's blackened all of history. Against us is the law with its immensity of strength and power - against us is the law! Police know how to make a man a guilty or an innocent. Against us is the power of police! The shameless lies that men have told will ever more be paid in gold - against us is the power of the gold! Against us is racial hatred and the simple fact that we are poor.
    - The Ballad of Sacco and Vanzetti, Joan Baez

  35. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meherrin View Post
    Lurk, you might be surprised by the number of people who have told me that they stay away from the forums, and GenChat in particular, because of the amount of trolling and personal insults. Some of us have been trying to lure them back with the promise of non-political threads, and some have come.
    Most of the time when I check the GenChat forum, I scan through the thread titles, sigh internally, and then pick "mark forum read". New threads are sometimes worth reading for maybe half a dozen posts, but they often degrade quickly after that. For example, a thread about feeling good about finding an extra cookie in a package turned into accusations of racism in under a page. How does that contribute to the Travian community?
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  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackBlade View Post
    Edit:
    As a side note, it doesn't seem cost effective to keep all of the CM's. This is especially true regarding English domains (currently 6 by my count). There isn't exactly a huge amount of players between them. At my last count in Feb. I counted 36,626 between the 6 domains. A farcry from the days the U.S Domain peaked over 100k. So will any of the CM's be let go, have a change in roles etc.? More specifrically I am concerned about your job since you are fantastic in your role and TG needs more people like you. The same concern might extend to the Mod team as well, though I'm not familiar with the compensation structure if any.

    Though this does bring up a third point and obviously you can only say so much, but might this indicate the merging of domains in some fashion? Whether it means restructuring them all to .COM, while perhaps retaining some national servers instead of entire domains or something else entirely? It would seem like the next logical step after forum intergration would be some change in how domains / servers and the tournament works.
    Some of the domains are already managed by the same CM/CSR, UKUS for example. As it stands there is no further merges planned for UKUS at the moment, but I'm not going to say it will never happen. (UK has 17k registered players and US 13K although the DAU is much lower)

    Remember that quite a few CM's for Travian:Legends also cover Travian:Kingdoms, Miramagia, Railnation, GoalUnited, UnitedGP and (future) Crowfall

    It may look like a lot of CMs/CSR but many of us do more than one role. Regarding your other point. I have worked for TG since 2008 and have covered many different games and roles over the years, I have no plans to vanish anytime soon


    Regarding domain/server merges. LT LV EE were merged into the Baltic domain in 2013 however the process was not especially smooth. I suspect many more domains will be closed or merged in the future but for now there are no further plans.
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meherrin View Post
    Lurk, you might be surprised by the number of people who have told me that they stay away from the forums, and GenChat in particular, because of the amount of trolling and personal insults. Some of us have been trying to lure them back with the promise of non-political threads, and some have come.
    I wouldn't be surprised. People have been saying this for many years (not for as long as I've been here, but there was a huge surge in activity and players around 2008/2009 which is why we had 2 admins). Back then there were trolls but also enough creativity and comedy to keep things rolling despite the troll content which until now was always a minority of the community. Or, perhaps to put it more precisely, most of our members did some trolling, but it was done in a much classier and intelligent way than what we're seeing now. It was actually interesting to read and the personality types that were attracted to posting were much more varied. The general lines of logic in the posts in GC today are just lazy. They're one-liners for the most part and it's actually deteriorating from what I've seen in the past few months.

    If you want examples of what I'm referring to here, I can dig some up...But a good example, I think, would be Ms. Evil type of posts. She made plenty of troll posts and I'm sure we lost a few 12 year old members as a result of some of her flaming (for which I assure you she was banned, but given that this is the Internet and things happen at a quick pace, damage is done almost as soon as a post is made). But I can also assure you that her posts attracted plenty of members as well and many of them were good people that made good posts. The difference between her trolling and what we're getting with Blazin/cofc/Rok is that her posts were always fresh, funny, and creative. Really creative. What we're getting now is just old, "High School Never Ends" type garbage.

    But on the other hand I think unilaterally blaming "the trolls" is also a bit lazy. There were plenty of people back then that came on board despite the trolls and either ignored them or beat them back with ignore lists. We've always had "trolls," if you're using that word in a broad sense, and they haven't always alienated newcomers. I'm not sure that the problem is "the trolls" as much as it is quality of people.

    I totally believe that there are people that are afraid or turned off by "the trolls." But on the other hand the opportunity is there for anyone to be part of the solution and I'm glad some of our more experienced members are starting to step up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tineren View Post
    For example, a thread about feeling good about finding an extra cookie in a package turned into accusations of racism in under a page. How does that contribute to the Travian community?
    It doesn't. The reason that happened has as much to do with the history of the thread starter on these boards as it has to do with the current forum culture. The individual that started that thread is generally a good member but he has been, on and off, for many years now varying degrees of flamebait. Administration is either going to have to start banning the low-quality people that take flamebait and act childish or we're going to have to have a total reset where enough new, good members are brought in where the people posting stale garbage just don't fit in anymore.
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  38. #38
    Artisan Kerzi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lurk View Post

    But on the other hand I think unilaterally blaming "the trolls" is also a bit lazy. There were plenty of people back then that came on board despite the trolls and either ignored them or beat them back with ignore lists. We've always had "trolls," if you're using that word in a broad sense, and they haven't always alienated newcomers. I'm not sure that the problem is "the trolls" as much as it is quality of people.

    I totally believe that there are people that are afraid or turned off by "the trolls." But on the other hand the opportunity is there for anyone to be part of the solution and I'm glad some of our more experienced members are starting to step up.
    I remember those trolls, way back when. I absolutely agree that the 'quality' has degenerated over time, to almost the point of absurdity. I don't think the problem is one of being lazy by blaming the trolls, though. You said it yourself: back then, "There were plenty of people back then that came on board despite the trolls and either ignored them or beat them back with ignore lists". There simply isn't "plenty of people" anymore. Those left in that area are, for the most part, ALL trolls. If one were to post any type of non-fluff topic there, with the intent of having a good discussion, it would be quickly overtaken by the hyenas that dominate that section. Put them all on ignore, and you risk having a conversation with yourself. They win because of quantity at this time; they are the majority of those who post there. I, for one, welcome the non-political discussion rule on the new forum: there is NO reason for some of the worst offenders to migrate now.
    Last edited by Kerzi; 06-24-2017 at 12:03 AM. Reason: commas and crap
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  39. #39
    Consul Lurk's Avatar
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    I agree with your post except for one thing: I don't think that the solution is to get rid of the political discussions. We used to have nice things even in that respect. If it weren't for literally 3 people (2 of which by the way used to be constructive political-posting members, so really it's just 1 member that can't be an adult) the political discussions would be fine IMO.

    As for the "lazy" remark: I didn't say that that was the problem. Just the mentality of pointing at "the trolls" and acting as if they're the #1 reason these forums are dead is a bit lazy as it discourages exploring the deeper reasons behind the death throes. I'm just saying that "the trolls" aren't the problem. Even back when it was extremely busy around here people complained about "the trolls" even when they were an extreme minority of the actively posting members. I don't think that "the trolls" are the main cause for the people disappearing. That would be the problems with game mechanics and the lack of communication/giveadamn between HQ and customers.

    I will also admit that there was a greater tendency to proactively ban the trolls that contributed nothing to the community. The more creative/intelligent ones got a pass when we could give them one. But the 12 year olds didn't get that mercy as they annoyed the staff on an even more personal level than they did the adult rank-and-file. I don't know if that was necessarily the right way to go....but it did work at the time.
    Last edited by Lurk; 06-24-2017 at 12:55 PM.
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    Artisan Kerzi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lurk View Post
    I agree with your post except for one thing: I don't think that the solution is to get rid of the political discussions. We used to have nice things even in that respect. If it weren't for literally 3 people (2 of which by the way used to be constructive political-posting members, so really it's just 1 member that can't be an adult) the political discussions would be fine IMO.
    I think we're saying the same thing in a different way. I welcome it, simply because it means the end of the crap that is that section now. It's an over reaction to a problem that is, as you said, solved simply by the disappearance of a few.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lurk View Post
    As for the "lazy" remark: I didn't say that that was the problem. Just the mentality of pointing at "the trolls" and acting as if they're the #1 reason these forums are dead is a bit lazy as it discourages exploring the deeper reasons behind the death throes. I'm just saying that "the trolls" aren't the problem.
    No, they are not the reason this forum is dead. They are simply the reason that no one new attempts to post in that particular section, the one section that should see ALL servers coming together as one. The forums are dead because, as you said, the game mechanics: new and oftentimes unwanted changes chased off some, while the insane time commitment needed to be successful chased off others. Those new to the game have not been enough to stem the bleeding of vets over the years. The changes meant to entice new people in failed, and they chased too many people out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lurk View Post
    I will also admit that there was a greater tendency to proactively ban the trolls that contributed nothing to the community.
    This. This this this. There ARE some who are not part of this community. They simply exist to flame, troll, or insult in gen chat. They have NO link to the game itself. If the new forum allows and justifies that kind of ban hammer again I do believe we'd all be, as a community, better off.
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