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Thread: Ghost Hammer Guide

  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by -I-Ember-I-x View Post
    True, you would have to constantly replace TTs, but thats the great thing. They are cheap, train quickly, and can raid so efficiently, they easily pay for themselves and then some. It is an extremely efficient hammer. And your targets (except for enemy hammers) should not leave you with too many losses.
    That's not quite right.

    TT's are not cheap enough to count that as a virtue and they do not train quickly. They aren't strong either, so they make an extremely inefficient hammer. The *only* reason the ghost hammer is at all effective is due to its speed. That is the only real asset that thunders have to offer. Ghost hammers do suffer significant losses which is only mitigated somewhat by striking before reins can arrive (remember not only are TTs crappy attackers, but the walls will still be in place!).

    Ranking the cavalry by Atk/time and Atk/resources they come out as such... (and note that Atk/time is going to be even better for romans since the Horse Drinking Trough is not included in these calculations)

    Roms EC can produce 1091 att/hr @ a cost of 13.3K rsrc/hr
    Teuts TK can produce 1081 att/hr @ a cost of 11.0K rsrc/hr
    Roms EI can produce 970 att/hr @ a cost of 11.4K rsrc/hr
    Gauls HD can produce 957 att/hr @ a cost of 13.4K rsrc/hr
    Gauls TT can produce 774 att/hr @ a cost of 9.4K rsrc/hr

    Atk/ 1000 resources:
    Teuts TK produce 98.36
    Roms EI produce 85.11
    Roms EC produce 82.95
    Gauls TT produce 82.57
    Gauls HD produce 71.25

    Quote Originally Posted by Nichts View Post
    Without an artifact speed boost TK ghost hammers are impossible, and EI ones... well, they just don't have the speed of TTs either.
    In 3.5 I almost feel like EIs may be allowed as some sort of honorable mention as a ghost hammer with the horse drinking watering hole trough place. They have a very respectable attack/wheat and with a potential 20% reduction in build time you can train them faster than TTs so that while your pseudo-ghost-hammer moves 5 squares/hr slower than the thunder, it hits a helluvalot harder. I dunno, it's close either way. I can see that speed making all the difference between them simply dodging or not, but with the EIs you should feel more confident in taking on more dangerous targets that would be hazardous for thunders if you think you can slip in through a window of inactivity.

    I can definitely see the point that with EIs being only 83.3% the speed of Thunders, they may be just shy of ghost-hood, it mostly lets you shift the sliding scale to attack more dangerous piles of troops but only upon players who are not as active.

  2. #42

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    Okay, here goes.

    When I said it is an extremely efficient hammer, I did not mean in attack power. I meant in raiding. It is so much *cheaper* to train a TT hammer 24/7. Not technically, but practically. It may be more expensive per attack point and all that, but bottom line is, with those TTs, you will raid so much that your overall income/expense ratio will be amazing. You will a wonderful income compared to any other cav hammer.


    When it comes to down right attacking though, you are right. TTs dont have the umph. BUT that 5 f/hr makes all the difference in the world. And with a TS in place, that 5 turns into 15. And on any attack over 30 fields, that is all the difference in the world. You dont have to deal with reinforcements at all hardly. Spears and phalanx are to slow, and druids suck cav. The only reinforcements you could have to worry about are roman cav and haeds. And Im not sure about the overall willingness of friends to throw their cavalry in front of an attack.

    No, for the most part, you will be sniping with your TTs. You will hit with precision hits to take out random feeders with a few hundred defensive troops stationed there until they will be needed. In the case of hitting players more on the noob side, hitting them in the hopes of them not being on to send out their troops or such.

    They dont need the attack power of the other cavalry, because they will be against so few troops. Normally taking out so few troops wouldnt be worth the time, but when you can do it a dozen times a day, it becomes quite worth it.

    An EI 'ghost hammer' on the other hand is...well just stupid in my mind. They are slow enough that villages can be reined in time enough that it will really put a hurting on you. Every village that can rein in time makes it that much worse. Yes they have alot more punch to counteract this, but that punch comes at a cost. Not only does an EI hammer cost more, it raids less than a TT hammer, and is not as self sufficient. If you lose a good chunk of your EIs, then even full time raiding may be stressed to keep training 24/7. If you lose most of your EIs, it will be no problem to keep it going 24/7 and build it back up. This is exponential when you count GS.
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  3. #43

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    Just a couple short observations. I am gonna go out on a limb and suspect you have not played a raiding roman...

    EIs are awesome raiders. As a roman I have been a top 1-10 raider, would have been 14 or so weeks consecutively if not for taking a vacation for a week on one server (probably would have been a longer run but rankings did not kick in until mid game). They are fantastic raiders for their crop with the Watering Hole. I can raid a quad with less than 10k cav. That should not really be a consideration for how effective a hammer is. It is just an aside that yes you can raid with it.

    Really the bigger concern about ghost hammers are not reins, but whether they notice in time to dodge. EIs are definitely at a disadvantage there but if you are surprise clearing for someone else's attack then EIs have the edge. EIs can easily outrun reins, the dodging is what ghosts care about since you want to sneak up on or follow hammers home with little notice. EIs have a shorter distance that they can sneak up on but you can totally menace everyone in a 4 hour range (100ish square for EI, 170ish for TT). You have a shorter reach but can hit sleeping hammers that would tear up the TTs.

    p.s. raiding enemy supply villas to kill a few hundred troops is a huge waste of a ghost tt, ei or otherwise.

  4. #44

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    I did not mean to imply that EIare not amazing raiders, they are. Statistically they are the most efficient raiders. But realistically, speed makes the TTs outshine EI immensely. You said yourself, TTs almost double your raiding area at 4 hours time, and even more the further you get away.

    As for raiding, I think that it is a very large part of the importance of a hammer. If you have a hammer than can easily support itself for wheat and training 24/7 with GS, then all the feeder villages that would need to go to it if it didnt raid, can go to other hammers (minis or main).

    As for raiding enemy supply villages to kill off pockets of troops is not a huge waste. Not when you do it correctly. It is supposed to be done to villages in a certain area when you or an ally is preparing the chiefing or catapulting of a village/villages in the area, and the defensive troops in the are will have to be taken out with your hammers.

    The only thing that matters with a hammer is its overall size..the bigger it is, the better it is. If you can lose a few K TTs to save a part of your hammer, than it is worth it. Its not like those resources could go towards building your hammer faster. Its already growing 24/7. So the only factor in its size is troops lost in each battle(and time of course).

    Regardless of any of this, this is a thread about a ghost hammer. Which is a TT hammer. If you think EI are better, than go write up something on them and see public opinion. And considering that it is a tribe change to choose between TTs and EI, I dont think that anyone will change the tribe they play for a secondary playing tool. This is mean for gauls who would like to improve their game play/knowledge.
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  5. #45

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    I would write up the EI version but it is redundant. You do the same exact guide as with thunders except
    1) you have a shorter range (so don't sim far away),
    2) you need a horse watering trough obviously,
    3) you can hit so much harder that it is funny.

    I had an ally on my last server who by early midgame was running around hitting folk with 20k Thunders from the 200's region of the quad.

    If it was a 3.5 server then we could have had a roman running around also with 20k EIs sitting in the 90's region of the quad, not just equally suited to hit everyone, but in many cases better suited to do so.

    You could actually start using your EI ghost hammer earlier than the TT simply because it attains a level of strength equal to the TTs far earlier. 15k EIs hit as hard as 20k TTs. With a 20 Horse Drinking Trough, you build 45 more EIs per day than a gaul can build TTs. If you take into account a Great Stable then you are pumping out almost 90 more EIs per day than TTs (606:516). Making about 100k attack points/day (after bonuses) versus 68k that a gaul makes daily.

    In a comparison of time with Great Stables, it takes about 40 days to make 20k TTs versus 25 days to get 15k EIs. That's 15 more days you will have to be fielding a strong ghost hammer at real targets that make people cry.

    I was willing to cede that EIs only make an honorary ghost initially, but looking at the numbers, I can make a very solid case that in 3.5 EIs make a superior ghost hammer so long as your intent is to brutalize a single quad instead of all 4 quads.

    A roman can scoot out to 90|90-ish and hit about anyone who isn't in the boonies for their quad in under 4 hours. Unless the target have 24/7 coverage then you can probe and find their offline times and destroy sleeping hammers. 4 hours is kind of my golden number for sneaky attacks since people really need to sleep at least that much daily and if they don't have consistent sitters/duals then you can punish them for their humanity.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    I would write up the EI version but it is redundant. You do the same exact guide as with thunders except
    1) you have a shorter range (so don't sim far away),
    2) you need a horse watering trough obviously,
    3) you can hit so much harder that it is funny.

    I had an ally on my last server who by early midgame was running around hitting folk with 20k Thunders from the 200's region of the quad.

    If it was a 3.5 server then we could have had a roman running around also with 20k EIs sitting in the 90's region of the quad, not just equally suited to hit everyone, but in many cases better suited to do so.

    You could actually start using your EI ghost hammer earlier than the TT simply because it attains a level of strength equal to the TTs far earlier. 15k EIs hit as hard as 20k TTs. With a 20 Horse Drinking Trough, you build 45 more EIs per day than a gaul can build TTs. If you take into account a Great Stable then you are pumping out almost 90 more EIs per day than TTs (606:516). Making about 100k attack points/day (after bonuses) versus 68k that a gaul makes daily.

    In a comparison of time with Great Stables, it takes about 40 days to make 20k TTs versus 25 days to get 15k EIs. That's 15 more days you will have to be fielding a strong ghost hammer at real targets that make people cry.

    I was willing to cede that EIs only make an honorary ghost initially, but looking at the numbers, I can make a very solid case that in 3.5 EIs make a superior ghost hammer so long as your intent is to brutalize a single quad instead of all 4 quads.

    A roman can scoot out to 90|90-ish and hit about anyone who isn't in the boonies for their quad in under 4 hours. Unless the target have 24/7 coverage then you can probe and find their offline times and destroy sleeping hammers. 4 hours is kind of my golden number for sneaky attacks since people really need to sleep at least that much daily and if they don't have consistent sitters/duals then you can punish them for their humanity.
    Well put. I like an EI mini hammer in one of my 9c's. It is a great asset to take out troops without letting the opponents whole alliance get there first. TT's are great, but EI's have more power. HWT only makes 'em better.

  7. #47

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    Okay, Im starting to see your point.. Romans can have a cavalry hammer too.

    But back on subject, help me out revising this thing. I know its not done yet, but school just started and its a little hectic. Throw some ideas around, and ill edit some of them in.
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by -I-Ember-I-x View Post
    Okay, Im starting to see your point.. Romans can have a cavalry hammer too.

    But back on subject, help me out revising this thing. I know its not done yet, but school just started and its a little hectic. Throw some ideas around, and ill edit some of them in.
    Yes, we do. It's not as fast, but has more power. Roman goast hammers can take out more troops per training time, but lack in the distance that we can do it effectivly.

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by ONeilcool View Post
    Does the tournament square stack with the speed artifact? If so that means TT's can travel 171 fields per hour (assuming you have the unique artifact and a level 20 tournament square) and can travel 30 squares in just under 11 minutes. Now that's a scary ghost hammer.

    Ok, so before I go and kill a whole bunch of troops getting a Speed Artifact, has anybody confirmed that the Bonuses stack?

  10. #50

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    If you are wanting it for a ghost hammer, then you shouldnt do it. The plus of that bonus on a ghost hammer would no be worth the losses youd take trying to keep that artifact. Yeah, a ghost hammer would be so amazing with an artifact that it would be godly...but not at the cost of hammers banging on your wall for no other reason but that.
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  11. #51

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    Ember, you are receiving my vote for the new mayor of crazy-town.

    By your logic, nobody should take any good artifacts. That's awful.

    If you have an alliance worth anything, they will protect your artifact and hammer villa and make it suicide for enemies to steal the artifact from you so that you can help them by being a horrifying menace to their enemies. More than any other artifact, the speed increasing one makes it pretty easy to retaliate upon someone before their attacks even land. If you have a couple speed demons working together, you can do ninja hammer chiefings that will make your enemies cry.

    If it is an account-wide artifact then you can shift the artifact to a villa with loads of granaries and host a few hundred thousand defenders easily. If it is a villa-specific artifact then at least you don't have loads of infantry and siege to feed since it is just the cavalry. After you get the artifact in place you can even get rid of barracks and siege factory to make room for more granaries. Defending an artifact won't be a problem.

  12. #52

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    Im sorry, I didnt make myself clear. When I said it isnt worth it, I was referring to the account specific artifact, and using it for your ghost hammer. Using the speed artifact for regular hammers is obviously godly, but not for a ghost hammer. The bonus isnt worth the cost. But it obviously is for a real hammer.

    If its an account wide artifact, then heck yes, a ghost hammer is freaking amazing.
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  13. #53

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    I don't want to meet the 171 field/hr artifacted ghost hammer.

    You could send a ghost hammer into a different quad just for kicks.

  14. #54

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    Well artifacts have brought a new ghost to the battlefield.

    The Druidrider ghost anvil, used against mainly infantry hammers and especially for cutting cata waves a DR ghost anvil is scary to anybody looking to cata someone.

    I can get to (287|-141) which is the opposite of my cap at (-113|259) in 7 hours 20 minutes with only a lv 16 TS right now. So when I get lv 20 that would shorten it to somewhere right under 7 hours, and with catas without an artifact(most won't have one) they take exactly 10 hours to get to the point where the TS kicks in.

  15. #55

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    A ghost DR anvil is great..but if theres catas involved, then you can usually get there in time without it once you get your TS a good level. What I would love is to have an artifact with a real anvil..with a couple thousand phalanx traveling faster than cavalry. Now THAT is what I call scary. Being able to send phalanx half way across the server to defend against a catapult or chief attempt..it brings the phalanx into play so much more. Ive not lost a single phalanx in idk how long..but DRs? Im dropping them like crazy. If I could get the phalanx there in time..it would be much a different story and a lot less troops would die...on my side that is
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  16. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by -I-Ember-I-x View Post
    A ghost DR anvil is great..but if theres catas involved, then you can usually get there in time without it once you get your TS a good level. What I would love is to have an artifact with a real anvil..with a couple thousand phalanx traveling faster than cavalry. Now THAT is what I call scary. Being able to send phalanx half way across the server to defend against a catapult or chief attempt..it brings the phalanx into play so much more. Ive not lost a single phalanx in idk how long..but DRs? Im dropping them like crazy. If I could get the phalanx there in time..it would be much a different story and a lot less troops would die...on my side that is
    I didn't say I had only DRs to the contrary I have a 3:1 phalanx to DR anvil and yes my phalanx do move around extremely fast and can keep up with all but gaul cavalry with equal lv TS, but even though the phalanx are fast they are a bit slow to be called ghost.

  17. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by -I-Ember-I-x View Post

    When to attack: Since TT hammers are meant to take out massive defenses, they are usually used to soften up players against a real hammer attack.
    I think that's a typo

  18. #58

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    Well, they may not be ghost in the common sense of the term...but we can call then ghost infantry. Infantry that pop up way further than they should without notice to defend. Imagine the common act of taking someones spawn that theyve pretty much abandoned. You go to chief it, and their alliance is generally far enough away that you expect some cav defense..but not to much inf defense. You hit and a couple K worth or phalanx are there alongside the cav defense. Your screwed because you didnt expect it and you lose most if not all what you sent.

    @other guy

    No, it wasnt a type. TTs dont have the attack power to take out large groups of defenders. They will get pwned and you will end up coming out on the losing side in every way. Resource, time, effectiveness, capability, and hero(if you sent it). No, losing your TT hammer in that way is not the way to do it.
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  19. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by -I-Ember-I-x View Post

    No, it wasnt a type. TTs dont have the attack power to take out large groups of defenders. They will get pwned and you will end up coming out on the losing side in every way. Resource, time, effectiveness, capability, and hero(if you sent it). No, losing your TT hammer in that way is not the way to do it.
    So you're saying that TT hammers SHOULD be used to take out massive defenses?

    The word I put in bold was "ARE." I put it in bold because I think you meant to say "ARE NOT."

    This is what you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by -I-Ember-I-x View Post

    When to attack: Since TT hammers are meant to take out massive defenses, they are usually used to soften up players against a real hammer attack.

  20. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by -I-Ember-I-x View Post
    Well, they may not be ghost in the common sense of the term...but we can call then ghost infantry. Infantry that pop up way further than they should without notice to defend. Imagine the common act of taking someones spawn that theyve pretty much abandoned. You go to chief it, and their alliance is generally far enough away that you expect some cav defense..but not to much inf defense. You hit and a couple K worth or phalanx are there alongside the cav defense. Your screwed because you didnt expect it and you lose most if not all what you sent.
    Yeah

    Quote Originally Posted by -I-Ember-I-x View Post
    @other guy

    No, it wasnt a type. TTs dont have the attack power to take out large groups of defenders. They will get pwned and you will end up coming out on the losing side in every way. Resource, time, effectiveness, capability, and hero(if you sent it). No, losing your TT hammer in that way is not the way to do it.
    You typed are not are not. I believe you mean't to type are not.

  21. #61

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    Sorry for the confusion. I thought that what you highlighted in bold is what you thought I meant to say. I fixed it. Thanks.

    Is there anything else I need to add to this? I am going to go over it soon and add more..but is there anything that sticks out that I could add now?
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  22. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigHebe View Post
    Ok, so before I go and kill a whole bunch of troops getting a Speed Artifact, has anybody confirmed that the Bonuses stack?
    they stack, but not a full A x B x C.

    i have a 2x speed in my (non-ghost) hammer and its lovely. go get it.

    if you dont believe me, ask nichts. he's been on the receiving end of some of our speed arti's. (not mine)
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    I really don't like to do extreme multi-quotes, but I haven't posted yet and see a TON of things wrong with the strategy here. So here we go...

    Quote Originally Posted by -I-Ember-I-x View Post
    Hopefully this will answer any questions about TT hammers. A ghost hammer is generally for skilled players.
    TT hammer =/= ghost hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by -I-Ember-I-x View Post
    Concept: A hammer of TTs with a TT hero. Lightning fast. The goal is to hit a hammer at home.
    And nothing more. Any lesser use of such a weak, specific attack force is a waste. These are for following serious clears home, not to be wasted on defenders or on the off chance you'll find little crap somewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by -I-Ember-I-x View Post
    Location: You can train a ghost hammer in just about any type of village, it really depends on your preferences, and use of hammer. I think the new 7cropper would be an excellent choice, combining extra wheat with the unexpectedness of a non-cropper. A 6wheat would be nice for a very small ghost hammer, aimed at smaller players. If your looking to make a large ghost hammer, then a cropper is needed.
    No such thing as a small ghost hammer. A small TT collection is known as a raiding force, nothing more. You need monster wheat support and dedicated

    Unless you have spectacular storage or are a centrally located force with amazing raiding, you will be sacrificing the opportunity to build a WW hammer in favor of the ghost.

    Quote Originally Posted by -I-Ember-I-x View Post
    Expendable: A ghost hammer is expendable. They are quickly built and cheap. Don't hesitate to use it often, just don't kill your hero.
    This is where I got so disgusted the first time though that I stopped reading. TTs are not cheap or fast to build or enjoyable to rebuild. The only expendable unit is the mace. TTs are 65% mace atk/hour and 51% mace atk/resource. Thus, you must be no less than twice as careful with it.

    Also consider the target. The significant hammer you are likely to be following home is teuton. This IS a midgame strategy, after all. That means these are the defenders you're likely to run into:
    spears from target's other villages
    phalanx from personal anvil
    haeds from nearby gauls
    TK from anyone in range willing to sacrifice, plus the hammer you're following

    nasty anti-cav defense, you're probably gonna sacrifice the ghost for this shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by -I-Ember-I-x View Post
    Number: A single ghost hammer is okay. Two ghost hammers is great. Three ghost hammers? SCARY. If you can support two or even three ghost hammers, I highly recommend doing so.
    nooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    one big hammer

    Quote Originally Posted by -I-Ember-I-x View Post
    Targets
    the target is the purpose. follow the hammer home.

    Quote Originally Posted by -I-Ember-I-x View Post
    Fakes
    why bother?

    Quote Originally Posted by -I-Ember-I-x View Post
    Knowing your enemyThis creates a moment of stacked defense, but not a full anvil. This is what the Ghost hammer is made to do.
    incorrect

    Quote Originally Posted by -I-Ember-I-x View Post
    BlacksmithWhen you reach the number of troops in the third column, it becomes more cost and time efficient to upgrade than train troops. After you start the upgrade, continue training until you reach the next number. Wash, rinse, repeat.
    Blacksmith upgrades are extra attack for zero increase in upkeep, training time, or training cost. Get to 20 asap. [this is a tip that applies to every hammer build. if you can't afford it, stop calling your attackers a hammer, they aren't.]

    Quote Originally Posted by -I-Ember-I-x View Post
    When NOT to trail a hammer home:
    Trailing home gaul hammers is not the best idea, especially if it has alot of haeds. That in conjunction with the fact that gauls like to cluster up a little, means that phalanx and other haeds will never be far off. They will eat your TTs up. The best way to take out any gaul defenses is with a real hammer. Simple as that. They are just to strong defenders.
    All three heavy cav are anti-cav defense. Suck it up and smash the gd hammer.

    Quote Originally Posted by -I-Ember-I-x View Post
    When to attack
    When you get an exact time on a follow home of a significant enemy hammer, go blow it up.

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