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Thread: Gold Buyer's guide to a Mid-Game Hammer

  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baghernia View Post
    1200gold per month and 3+ hrs required per day.... wtf...

    But essentially this a totally inefficient system... requiring outrageous amount of gold... and an above average time commitment...
    LOL

    You guys obviously dont have a clue! On com10 there were accounts that used in access of 4000 gold the first month. 1200 really is not a lot to be using for gold players - especially when you have 4 or so duals.

    And all those accounts are 24/7... 3 hrs is at the bottom end of the scale, certainly not the average amount of time spent.

    Now you can't afford to be using that much gold- so then dont, it really has no effect on me. The guide is there for people that use the gold anyway, I'm just showing a good way to use it.
    Last edited by Chris (Lord Aslan); 12-07-2009 at 05:40 AM.

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Aslan View Post
    LOL

    You guys obviously dont have a clue! On com10 there were accounts that used in access of 4000 gold the first month. 1200 really is not a lot to be using for gold players - especially when you have 4 or so duals.

    And all those accounts are 24/7... 3 hrs it at the bottom end of the scale, certainly not the average amount of time spent.
    I understand people do spend huge quantities of gold on accounts... whats worse they're often done on accounts with multiple players...

    I got to question then the competence of these players to require such huge gold expenditure.


    You said in the first post that you didn't have much and this was for people without much time... 3hrs minimum doesn't seem to fit that category much....

    So you're really only aiming this guide at a few players per server... not real a guide then... just a how to for a small percentage of player.


    Seems we have found the Jono of the UK server...
    Last edited by Baghernia; 12-07-2009 at 05:51 AM.

  3. #43

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    I messed up some math and edited my previous post. The short of it is, after level 12s, settle a new village.

    Math sez so.

    [edit: p.s. This link is helpful for correcting some of the build order for the 15c pre-capital fields.]
    Last edited by Erik; 12-07-2009 at 06:13 AM.

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    There is the extra cost of settlers and their infrastructure for the extra villages' low level fields, so I'd have to crunch numbers to show that the return on investment is still faster for extra villages, but knowing how horrifically slow the payout is for high level capital fields, I am confident that you get a better return by focusing on getting a few extra villages earlier than your guide suggests. Heck, in lieu of a later single field level you could instead entirely finance the creation of a new village.
    (Upon reviewing my previous post, it was pretty worthless, so I put some more time into it to come up with a better version.)

    I ran the math for expansion payoffs. This is only considering the Residence of the previous village, the cost of the Settlers (Teutons used, as they are the most expensive), and the direct cost of the fields. Upkeep is included in these calculations. The new village is assumed to be a 4/4/4/6, with all fields being increased equally.


    Level Payoff ... Prod
    .1 .. 112 days ... 52
    .2 ..
    57 days ... 108
    .3 .. 33 days ... 200
    .4 .. 24 days ... 310
    .5 .. 18 days ... 492
    .6 .. 15 days ... 768
    .7 .. 14 days .. 1098
    .8 .. 14 days .. 1608
    .9 .. 14 days .. 2388
    10 .. 16 days .. 3348

    As you can see, the payoff starts going back up at the end, where the costs of the field upgrades starts to outweigh the high startup costs for a new village.

    Now, for a single capital wheat field (the cheapest and most efficient fields). The following is only the costs for raising to that specific level from the previous level.

    Level Payoff . Prod
    11 .. 6 days ... 80
    12 ..
    8 days ... 95
    13 .. 10 days . 120
    14 .. 13 days . 140
    15 .. 17 days . 165
    16 .. 23 days . 200
    17 .. 29 days . 300

    As long as you plan to take the new village up to at least level 4 fields quickly, the new village is probably going to be better; you'll get a similar (or better, with higher-level fields) payoff, and you'll get more CP for doing so, as well.

    Oh, yeah:


    Total cost of getting all the fields to level 10 in a new village, counting everything but Main Building, Warehouse, and Granary: 1,282,160 resources.
    Production benefit: 3,348 resouces/hour.
    Payoff time: 16 days.

    Total cost of raising a single wheat field from level 10 to level 15: 754,780 resouces.
    Production benefit: 600 resources/hour.
    Payoff time: 52 days.
    Last edited by Woden; 12-07-2009 at 07:30 AM.

  5. #45

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    I'm mulling over these numbers and their implications Woden, but thought I'd mention an extra cost for new villages that we've been omitting. The 3000 resources the settlers carry. Oopsie daisies.

    It is a small enough sum that it won't change that level 13 fields give less resources per hour per investment than a new village with level 6 fields though (4.45 changes to 4.39, still beating out 3.83 for level 13's).

    I will diddle with field payoffs to speculate at what point a new village gains its best resource production per cost. It is likely that level 6's (a spot chosen at whimsy) is not the best value to compare for new villages. I don't think the resource to cost ratio will ever beat out the 5.06 ratio of the level 12 fields with 150% in bonuses, but I would be pleased to be wrong, and have it shown that even level 12 fields are not a good buy compared to a new village and its fields.

    Stay tuned.

    [edit: and I foolishly left out upkeep costs towards upgrades which may actually hurt them enough to drive them below the resource to cost ratio of level 13 fields... so many things to account for!]
    Last edited by Erik; 12-07-2009 at 07:26 AM.

  6. #46

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    First off, I scrapped the old post and redid the math.
    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    I'm mulling over these numbers and their implications Woden, but thought I'd mention an extra cost for new villages that we've been omitting. The 3000 resources the settlers carry. Oopsie daisies.
    Doesn't actually matter; the resources aren't lost, just moved to the new village. The only way it would affect anything is slightly delaying the Settlers getting sent.

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    and equivalent military assets... and they won't have been useless leeches or simmers for the past 5 months, nor spent $250 in gold.
    While I agree with most of your points, my experience has not shown any hammer even close to this size on by mid game Natars.

    I'm interested to see some more math on this subject. Keep those numbers coming!

    @Woden,

    So level 2 thru 9 give a consistently faster (or equal) return on investment consecutively?

    I always thought the higher level field, the slower the pay off.
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  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woden View Post
    First off, I scrapped the old post and redid the math.
    Ahhh, yes, that is much easier to comprehend.


    Quote Originally Posted by Woden View Post
    Doesn't actually matter; the resources aren't lost, just moved to the new village. The only way it would affect anything is slightly delaying the Settlers getting sent.
    Ehhh... in my defense, I was painting all day today, so much of my postings can be attributed to the amount of paint fumes I have inhaled.

    I was working out a table of production over cost for fields at all their various land marks, basically comparing the kirilloid land marks for when to build stuff, to figure out exactly where things went (it should actually decrease the payoff times you have posted), but as you have it right there, it shows that around level 12 is where things get questionable, if you can immediately jump your fields up high enough.

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Banger View Post
    @Woden,

    So level 2 thru 9 give a consistently faster (or equal) return on investment consecutively?
    When you add the cost of the village expansion onto the figures, yes.
    (Also, I think that level 9 was slower than level 8... it just rounds to the same.)


    I went ahead and calculated the amount of hours spent waiting for payoff per point of increased production. It's not a hugely relevant statistic except to help compare efficiency.

    I'll post the numbers sometime tomorrow, after I've had a chance to make sure I haven't messed them up with how tired I am right now, but it looks like new village levels 1 to 3 are terrible (still overcoming the Residence/Settler costs), 4 is on average with the lower teen levels, and 5-10 blow the 10+ levels out of the water.

  10. #50

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    To be honest I think the best way to go about it would be to simply found your new village whenever you have the CP - without partying...

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baghernia View Post
    Seems we have found the Jono of the UK server...
    Yes, except Jono's much more efficient with his gold-burning ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Aslan View Post
    To be honest I think the best way to go about it would be to simply found your new village whenever you have the CP - without partying...
    [striking back-track!]
    Not if you can afford to party.
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  12. #52

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    If you read the part where I combine raiding with my method you would see that you can never afford to party, all res goes intot he fields- the faster you work through the strategy the bigger the hammer you end up with. The more resources you waste on parties early on the longer it will take you to work through the strategy and hence the smaller your army will end up being.

  13. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woden View Post

    Total cost of getting all the fields to level 10 in a new village, counting everything but Main Building, Warehouse, and Granary: 1,282,160 resources.
    Production benefit: 3,348 resouces/hour.
    Payoff time: 16 days.

    Total cost of raising a single wheat field from level 10 to level 15: 754,780 resouces.
    Production benefit: 600 resources/hour.
    Payoff time: 52 days.
    Just for kicks, I threw in the bonus buildings:
    New village: Res 10 (60600), 3 teut settlers(75000) = 135,600
    All fields to 10, all bonus buildings to 5= 1,405,145
    Total cost = 1,540,745
    (non gold bonus) Production (minus population cost) = 4430

    Payoff in 14.5 days once you throw in the bonus buildings.

    And I reckon by doing more optimal build-ups of fields than simple straight leveling across the board you can shave some time from the payoffs on the lower level field versions.

    Infrastructure (MB, granary, warehouse, market, rally) will delay payoffs a bit, but that infrastructure really doesn't compare much to what is needed for higher level fields (and higher hero mansion), so if we factor those into each them I reckon it looks even sweeter still for the new village in a heads-up comparison.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Aslan View Post
    If you read the part where I combine raiding with my method you would see that you can never afford to party, all res goes intot he fields- the faster you work through the strategy the bigger the hammer you end up with. The more resources you waste on parties early on the longer it will take you to work through the strategy and hence the smaller your army will end up being.
    Except if you can shave a day off of getting a settlement for one party and then instant build up the settlement enough to cover the cost of that party in a less than a day, then not only did you make a profit overall thanks to that party, but you are reaping extra CPs thanks to the party and the new founded village.

    It is really the extra CPs that pay off since at some point you will be wanting to lay as many villages as possible because you will be getting more production, more resources, and thus, more hammer.

    [edit: of course it is wholly unlikely that you will recoup your party costs in just 1 day, but it isn't just that 1 village that comes a day earlier, but the faster you grow CPs the faster you get *ALL* your next villages, and it continues to compound. You suggested using large parties in your guide... it's more resource efficient to use more small parties if you have the time. And it's vastly more efficient to simply lay villages earlier and build up some CP producing infrastructure (academy, market, embassy) for the long haul.

    Your guide strategy aims towards getting bottle-necked in growth by CPs later on since they are relatively neglected in lieu of inefficient capital resource production.]
    Last edited by Erik; 12-07-2009 at 08:51 PM.

  14. #54
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    heh
    nice numbers wooden - hence the 7s / expo builds


    You can debate maths all you want, the fundamentals boil down to that the way you make the top account is application of the cp build template and none stop parties as soon as you can afford them. (NEVER BIG PARTIES THOUGH unless your just another pop monger)

  15. #55

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    My biggest problem with this is that it's all predicated on not ever being attacked. And that's just foolish to think you're going to leach off an alliance, or hide in the boonies and not ever be under fire.

    A 2 village account with a well developed 15c? I would salivate at the thought of being near an account like that. It's creating a super farm.
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  16. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sliffy View Post
    My biggest problem with this is that it's all predicated on not ever being attacked. And that's just foolish to think you're going to leach off an alliance, or hide in the boonies and not ever be under fire.

    A 2 village account with a well developed 15c? I would salivate at the thought of being near an account like that. It's creating a super farm.

    My job is a data analysis... and i'm highly stimulated by numbers...

    Despite that, this is one of the reasons I don't do do these breakdown in numbers...

    Travian has too many random factors in it for these perfect builds to work.


    Just having another capable player near you early in the game, throws away most people's game plan.


    You need to be able to adapt and play the early game.... the most important part of the game, if you're going to plan for the mid/late game.


    Knowing all that have been said here, are just templates for which you could build on as the game progress.


    Guides like these are terrible, as they ask for perfect conditions, which never occurrs, UNLESS you're a real top player and are able to play to enable those conditions.

    At the same time, the reason for this guide was lack of play time, but a we progress this actually requires a lot of game time... just to do the bare minimum...


    Which means this isn't really a guide... is just some smartxxxx trying to show off...

  17. #57
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    Out of reps for the day.


    O, dont bash on jono- Hes a speed head and shouldnt be held to the same standards.

  18. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baghernia View Post

    Which means this isn't really a guide... is just some smartxxxx trying to show off...
    Meh whatever. I'd been asked by many how I do what I do- I've shown how, obviously you guys feel nobody else can do what I do therefore this isn't a guide its just me showing of.

    In which case, can this thread please be deleted.

  19. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Aslan View Post
    Meh whatever. I'd been asked by many how I do what I do- I've shown how, obviously you guys feel nobody else can do what I do therefore this isn't a guide its just me showing of.

    In which case, can this thread please be deleted.
    There is no need to ask for a deletion of the thread because a few members dont think it's a good guide. Others may actually enjoy it.
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  20. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Aslan View Post
    Meh whatever. I'd been asked by many how I do what I do- I've shown how, obviously you guys feel nobody else can do what I do therefore this isn't a guide its just me showing of.

    In which case, can this thread please be deleted.

    Read what you wrote in your first post again... and the title... none of them matches up.


    You do what ever you do, good for you....


    But to call it a guide is ludicrous. That's what everyone is calling you out on, this isn't a guide... this is Lord Aslan telling us what he does...


    This is a guide....

    http://forum.travian.us/showthread.php?t=69317
    Last edited by Baghernia; 12-08-2009 at 01:25 AM.

  21. #61

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    If this thread must be locked or deleted then I would appreciate forking off the discussion to a different thread since a fair amount of effort was put into what I consider some valuable insight into calculations and efficiency by Woden and myself. I found this thread very useful since beforehand I only had my intuition to suggest that capital fields were less effective than spawning new villas. Now we have firmer stuff to base opinions on.

  22. #62
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    Use the TRDs.

  23. #63

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    nice guide. but not for me. btw, you the same Lord Aslan on s10.com??
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    You won't say that when your troops crash into my anvil. I'll have you know, I not only have double-digit phalanx, but I also have a level 1 cranny. Suck on that! ...
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    Any self respecting troll wouldn't even read this crap.

  24. #64

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    A player operating under this pretense is a player that I have in the past (and very likely would again if I ever decide to play beyond my current server) settled right next to and either removed from said cropper or raided the living daylights out of. Doesn't even need to be a second village, could be a third, or even fourth as chances are if done correctly, it will more than pay for itself in raids.

    I've done it on multiple servers to much success - though ukx a few rounds ago still sits dearest in my heart.

    also, JBrooks= simming god.
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  25. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by GodWin View Post
    nice guide. but not for me. btw, you the same Lord Aslan on s10.com??
    Yes, he is.

    I would like to note that with the advent on Travian 3.6 it is now more efficient to settle new villages for raiding purposes only, on top of the resource argument. The lower RP levels are much cheaper to upgrade than the higher ones, and so the first thing I have been doing when I found a new village is building troops. I can send many more raids, at a much cheaper cost. To begin with, the end limit of 100 raids says that your troop count in each raiding village should not be higher than around 400 troops per village. If you want more than that, you need another village regardless.
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  26. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Banger View Post
    Yes, he is.

    I would like to note that with the advent on Travian 3.6 it is now more efficient to settle new villages for raiding purposes only, on top of the resource argument. The lower RP levels are much cheaper to upgrade than the higher ones, and so the first thing I have been doing when I found a new village is building troops. I can send many more raids, at a much cheaper cost. To begin with, the end limit of 100 raids says that your troop count in each raiding village should not be higher than around 400 troops per village. If you want more than that, you need another village regardless.
    Exactly, because we all raid with no more than 4 troops at a time

  27. #67
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    Sounds like micro-raiding, which shouldn't be done any more.
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  28. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by thereter View Post
    Sounds like micro-raiding, which shouldn't be done any more.
    How else are you going to farm? Send 20 maces at an already cleared 2 pop village just because you can't send as many raids out?
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  29. #69

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    No, raid another village. Or, send 16 of those along for a ride with another party as insurance. Oh, and quit your *****ing.

  30. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channingman View Post
    Exactly, because we all raid with no more than 4 troops at a time
    Umm, yeah, generally 3 clubbies per raiding party, unless its a mad fat farm.

    Quote Originally Posted by thereter View Post
    Sounds like micro-raiding, which shouldn't be done any more.
    It sounds like smart farming, and it still can be done. Even if you dont micro-raid, small raiding parties is still the most efficient farming technique. Raiding more farms with less troops will ultimately yield more resources. You are much more likely to have 3 troops filled up on a random raid, than you are to have 4, or even 5.

    My figure of 400 was leaving room for some big farms to be raided with larger troop counts. FYI, you can raid the same as you always did. Micro-farmers can still micro-farm, hate have to be the one to break the news to everyone who didnt try it!.
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  31. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banger View Post
    Umm, yeah, generally 3 clubbies per raiding party, unless its a mad fat farm.



    It sounds like smart farming, and it still can be done. Even if you dont micro-raid, small raiding parties is still the most efficient farming technique. Raiding more farms with less troops will ultimately yield more resources. You are much more likely to have 3 troops filled up on a random raid, than you are to have 4, or even 5.

    My figure of 400 was leaving room for some big farms to be raided with larger troop counts. FYI, you can raid the same as you always did. Micro-farmers can still micro-farm, hate have to be the one to break the news to everyone who didnt try it!.
    I would rather have those troops going to bigger and more varied farms than be hitting the same little 2 popper for 10 resources a trip.
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  32. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by thereter View Post
    I would rather have those troops going to bigger and more varied farms than be hitting the same little 2 popper for 10 resources a trip.
    The idea is not to hit little 2 pop villages with multiple macemen over and over. That would be inefficient and defeat the whole purpose of micro raiding. Hitting an already established 60 pop village over and over is money in the bank.

  33. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    The idea is not to hit little 2 pop villages with multiple macemen over and over. That would be inefficient and defeat the whole purpose of micro raiding. Hitting an already established 60 pop village over and over is money in the bank.
    the idea is that you cant have accounts that send out 5000 2 mace raids on every friggin 2 pop with in 8 hours.

  34. #74

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    It seems another important thing was discussed here, I don't know if it needs a separate Thread or something but I would like to know more about it...
    The mini hammers?
    How much of them do you have?(I would appreciate if BLAH or Erik could give an example of how much of them they have on their current accounts(and tell us their number of villages ofc))When do you start building them?Every 4-5 villages like BLAH or do other build up more supporters for them?Do you absolutely have to raid to support them or...? And since they would require a lot of resources shouldn't you make them in barrack too?I am pretty much sure barrack troops have bigger atk per resources ratio...I kinda think BLAH is not doing it so he could have a lot of defences too?
    I am sure they are quite effective until the arti's come, maybe 1 month after that too.Killing multiple support villages.But what after that?When capitals need to be killed?Do you manage to get throu?Isn't even a small def going to kill your mini that prob isn't really big(it has been killed/rebuilded a lot of times prob)?
    Are there also players that suggest making one hammer only?What would be good reasons for that?
    Please I know there is long to talk about but I am really interested intro this subject a lot and would appreciate all the help I could get...

  35. #75

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    Not to completely speak for Blah, but the method he described is for making an account with the sole purpose of causing as much destruction as you possibly can. So you're running an account with several hammers capable of shredding accounts to bits, resource wiping, wheat killing, chiefing, just doing as much damage, as often as possible.

    I saw one person try to do it, but where they failed by having to combine their attacks from multiple villages. Blah is talking about having several independently operating hammers, and the only time you would combine them really is to chief.
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  36. #76

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    The only apparent downside is you can't hit a WW. And really, who cares about hitting the WW?

  37. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channingman View Post
    The only apparent downside is you can't hit a WW. And really, who cares about hitting the WW?

    Mentioning a WW to blah at this point causes him to break out in hives.
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  38. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sliffy View Post
    Mentioning a WW to blah at this point causes him to break out in hives.
    ^^^^this
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  39. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channingman View Post
    The only apparent downside is you can't hit a WW. And really, who cares about hitting the WW?
    I think that minis are the most effective and efficient way to completely lock down a WW from competing. There were a whole lotta questions posed there at blah n myself and I do not have time to hit them all right now. Will probably make a new thread for it later.

    Sliffy gave a pretty good summary tho.
    Last edited by Erik; 12-09-2009 at 04:45 AM.

  40. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    I think that minis are the most effective and efficient way to completely lock down a WW from competing. There were a whole lotta questions posed there at blah n myself and I do not have time to hit them all right now. Will probably make a new thread for it later.
    I would guess you mean pummeling early WW villages to keep them low? I've always wondered why that never seems to happen...

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