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Thread: Gold Buyer's guide to a Mid-Game Hammer

  1. #1

    Default Gold Buyer's guide to a Mid-Game Hammer

    A couple of years ago when dualling was still illegal and I had very little time for travian I worked out a strategy that would allow me to build a large hammer even though i wasn't spending much time on the game.

    This strategy has been worked on a lot and improved to give you the following hammer in-time for the midgame artifacts:

    54k mace.
    13k TK.
    500 cata's.

    What you need:

    1. 1200 + gold a month.
    2. An extensive knowledge of the game.
    3. 3+ hrs activity a day.
    4. Ability to use your Initiative

    As this is an advanced guide I'm not going to explain a lot of the basics, I'm explaining strategy not game-play.

    Basic to-do list:

    1. Found your 2nd village as fast as possible, 125%+ 15c.
    2. Sim your wheat fields to lvl 14.
    3. Found and sim 8 villages.
    4. Build weat fields to lvl 17.
    5. Build the hammer.

    Now I'm going to explain, with calculations etc how to do this within 150 days - for the midgame artifacts.

    15 days should be the maximum time it takes to found your 2nd village- even on v3.6, if you dont think your able for whatever reason, then get a dual or two or more!

    Once you found the 2nd village, build order for the 15c:

    1. MB lvl 3
    2. Warehouse
    3. Granary
    4. Market Place
    5. All Wheat fields lvl 1
    6. All fields lvl 2
    7. All fields lvl 3
    8. Warehouse lvl 3
    9. Granary lvl 4
    10. All fields lvl 4
    11. Warehouse lvl 6
    12. Granary lvl 8
    13. One wheat field lvl 5
    14. Wheat mill lvl 2
    15. All fields lvl 5
    16. All fields lvl 6
    17. Warehouse lvl 7
    18. Granary lvl 15
    19. Wheat mill lvl 4
    20. All fields lvl 7
    21. Wheat Mill lvl 5
    22. All fields lvl 8
    23. Warehouse lvl 8
    24. Granary lvl 20
    25. One wheat field lvl 10
    26. Bakery lvl 4 + warehouse lvl 10
    27. All fields lvl 9
    28. Baker lvl 5
    29. Hero's mansion lvl 10
    30. Hero from 1st village sent to village 2
    31. 50% oases Conquered
    32. All fields lvl 10

    This list requires initiative. If gold is no problem then there's no need to build your warehouse and granary higher than is needed. If gold is a slight problem then upgrade the warehouse high enough to be able to upgrade two fields per NPC.

    Fields 1-10 will take a varied time, with very little pushing from v1 it can be done quite easily within 28 days simply by NPC'ing and building from the res production.

    Next, and this is where simming starts having its rewards, where you start building things which guys which have been concentrating on getting 3rd villages etc wont be able to.

    33. All fields lvl 11

    One lvl 11 fields costs 42500 res. We'll have a production from our lvl 10 fields etc of 7k an hr, so thats 6 hrs per field. 4 fields a day. We're looking at 4 days max for lvl 11 fields.

    34. Lvl 15 hero's mansion
    35. 50% oases conquered

    After lvl 11's it will take us two days approx to conquer 2nd oases, thats then 13k an hr.

    36. All fields lvl 12

    Lvl 12 fields cost 70k a field approx, we can work on 5 hrs per field, because production rises as fields are upgraded. Almost 5 fields a day, 3 days to finish them.

    37. All fields lvl 13

    120k per level 13 field, production of 17k an hr, thats 7 hrs per field, 3 fields a day, 5 days for lvl 13's to be completed.

    38. Lvl 20 hero's mansion

    HM = 1,720,000 res, thats 3 days production, leaving us then with 27k res an hr.

    39. 25%/50% oases conquered, leaving us then with 27k res an hr.

    40. All fields lvl 14

    200k for lvl 14, it would take us 7.2 hrs per fields, then lvl 14's will take us only 5 days.

    Getting the fields from lvl 10 to lvl 14 will take an overall 23 days (adding 1 day production for the cost of warehouse, granary etc) and leave us with a production of 32k res an hr.

    Lets add up the days now shall we? 15 days to found the 2nd village, 28 days to get the fields to lvl 10, 23 days to get the fields to lvl 14 = 66 days.

    Now if storage was no problem you could quite easily build 70k mace, 17k tk and 800 cata's using our production alone by the time the artifacts come. However... storage is always a problem unfortunately. So we cant start building our army just yet.

    So... lets found some villages- afterall we only have two villages and by now our rank is quite low lol! Each village gives a basic 5k res production.

    We would have 20k Culture points by now, so emmediately we found two villages. Each village we'll be able to get to a great ball going within 24 hrs, meaning we'll have 4 villages with a great ball going. Thats 8k cp in 48 hrs. In that 48 hrs we can get those fields in the two new villages to lvl 10. To get village no5 we need 39000k CP. We'll have a basic CP production of 2k a day minimum. So that means it will take us 5 days to gain the first 20k CP. 5th village founded and 5 GB started. Thats 24k CP in 4 days. 65k CP needed for v6. 40k + 25k (+250 cp a day x 4 added from basic CP production of new village) = 65k means 6th village 4 days later. GB started in 6 villages = 14500CP per 48 hrs. Vill 7 = 99000CP. 65k + 29k. Lets say it takes us 6 days for v7. 94+ 14500 = 10800CP. 17000 CP per 48 hrs from 7 villages. V8 = 141000CP. 108000+ 34k = 142k CP in 4 days- v8. 4 days to sim feilds to lvl 10, build barracks + stable to lvl 20 in non capital and all infrastructure etc.

    Thats an overall 23 days to found and sim 6 villages.

    Now you have 35k extra res production. Thats 88 days into the server and you have a basic res production of 67k res an hr. Need more storage...

    lvl 15 field = 330k res an hr. = 4.5 hrs per field on average, thats 5.3 fields a day, so that 3 days for lvl 15 fields. Will then have a production of 77k res an hr.

    lvl 16 = 550k per field, = 7 hrs per field = 5 days - leaving plenty of res for other things. lvl 16 fields = 87k res an hr.

    900k res per lvl 17 field, thats 10hrs per field, so 7 days for lvl 17 fields.

    Thats 15 days from lvl 14 to lvl 17. = approx 105k res production an hour.

    So that means we're 103 days into the server and we have a 105k res production which is actually enough to build 24/7 in GB, GS and Workshop... but we cant do that because we wouldn't have anywhere to store the troops.

    SO... we have 105k res production, and 47 days to build a hammer... lets say 45 days to make a nice round number.

    There a huge number of different ways to build your hammer, some ways will produce a bigger one and some will produce a smaller one. But the one I'm going to for is as follows:

    Train troops in GB lvl 10 and GS lvl 10 - this will only cost you 50k res production an hour to keep this troop production going 24/7... meaning in 25 days you can have a 25 day troop building quee. Which is a good thing because by this point you only have 50k res production left- the rest already used for storage. After the 45 days (Overall 148 days into the server) are up you'll still have a 5 day troop quee but by now you will have:

    54k mace.
    13k TK.
    500 cata's.

    All this will fit in your storage as it only takes up about 96k storage.

    In the mean-time if you find any flaws or a better way of doing things please post below, and if I agree I'll add/edit it into the guide! Naturally the troop production can be manipulated to give a different Mace:TK:Cata

  2. #2

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    Really good guide mate!
    One of the rare guides that goes past early game...
    I am sure a lot of this can be used for different tactics...

    Did you care to develop a strategy guide for non-gold users?

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by NIDzA View Post
    Really good guide mate!
    One of the rare guides that goes past early game...
    I am sure a lot of this can be used for different tactics...

    Did you care to develop a strategy guide for non-gold users?
    Sorry but erm I'm not that experienced with non-gold game-play

  4. #4
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    Really good guide.

    Shouldn't this be in the Guide forum?

  5. #5

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    Only Mods can create threads int here- it would have to be moved.

  6. #6
    Villager 4colskypeck's Avatar
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    I make a motion to have this stickied
    Aslan is the guide lion!!
    2 things about neg repping me:
    1. If your going to neg rep me do it for something valid not because you disagree with me, if you disagree it is perfectly fine to either message me or just post. All this siggy and location neg is starting to get really anoying.
    2. Leave your name its not like there is anything I could do to hurt you in real life anyways what is there to fear.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4colskypeck View Post
    I make a motion to have this stickied
    Aslan is the guide lion!!
    If it works and mods like it, it will probably be stickied.
    Forum Rules | The Big "Bad Idea" Thread | Search Function | My Group
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    If you dont stand behind our troops, feel free to stand in front of them.

  8. #8

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    This guide looks pretty good for simming.

    Sounds like a ton of npc'ing and insta-build going on though. At $50 a month x 5 months you would be looking at $250 or more to sim up this army on a slow server.

    Paying good money for the luxury of only needing to put in 1 hour a day in a MMORPG and still having very good success feels like beating the system to me. I would see myself losing interest in travian fast with a very high payinglaying ratio.

    To each their own, time is money after all.

  9. #9
    Tradesperson lillyrose's Avatar
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    hehe, this is a pretty cool guide on how to save time and spend money... which (it seems to me) is the whole point of 3.6... they should certainly stickie this thread in the guides... or at least move it.

  10. #10
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    is this for speed or normal servers? i couldn't find it in the guide.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by x-factor View Post
    is this for speed or normal servers? i couldn't find it in the guide.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Aslan View Post
    As this is an advanced guide I'm not going to explain a lot of the basics, I'm explaining strategy not game-play.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Aslan View Post
    After ...(Overall 148 days into the server) are up you'll still have a 5 day troop que
    While it's not explicitly stated, it is implied that it is a normal speed server guide. If you take 148 days to build your hammer on speed you will not only miss capturing an artifact, you may well see the server end before you use your hammer.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCG View Post
    While it's not explicitly stated, it is implied that it is a normal speed server guide. If you take 148 days to build your hammer on speed you will not only miss capturing an artifact, you may well see the server end before you use your hammer.
    ha lol

  13. #13
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    Hey Lord Aslan, what's up? When did you make it over to the US forums?

    Remember me from the UK forums...by the same name?

  14. #14

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    A few observations.


    I know it is just an example, but using macemen is a mistake pretty much, especially within the expectations of this guide. They give you more attack points but are incredibly resource inefficient over the long haul (as in, a haul lasting longer than 10 days... at which point the macemen's extra wheat consumption makes them more expensive than axemen to train and feed). This isn't for an endgame hammer in size so you may as well make it a functional, efficient hammer. This setup has its maximum size limited by storage per the guide so you may as well get your money's worth for that wheat consumption.

    Again, it is just an example, but having 500 catapults instead of (1000) rams is going to be a mistake for most players using this guide. You seriously only need a handful of catapults (200) to be a menace. Rams and chiefs are much more important accessories to a hammer.

    Getting your 2nd village and ignoring your 3rd+ villages is inefficient. The lowest level resource fields pay for themselves the quickest, thus generating the fastest profit. Also you generate CPs much faster by building the villages as soon as you get them and launching into small parties early on rather than waiting a loooong time and then going straight into the expensive large parties (called great balls in this guide). You also have to waste a whole lot of gold in order to get those villages up to running large parties in 24 hours.

    Organically expanding your villages (i.e. generate CPs quickly and expand as soon as possible) is more efficient in resources, gold, and speed.

    I am assuming since this is a sim guide where you sacrifice early growth and efficiency, you almost certainly need to move out to the boonies in order to survive. That is going to make it even much more of a grind to get that 2nd village up and running however. If you aren't in the boonies, then having 8 support villages + 1 spawn + 1 good 15c before you start building troops in earnest means that you are going to get farmed and destroyed well before you ever get to that 10th village and start going military. Take a premium cropper near the spawning radius and you will get noticed. Get noticed like that *and* have a very weak setup (as this guide recommends) and you will get abused. Badly.

    Organically growing your hammer (i.e. increase your barracks and stable as you train troops, not simply cold-starting from nothing and using a GB and GS) isn't more efficient per se, but you run a horrible gamble by forgoing troops until you cold start with great barracks and stables. Growing organically makes it a trivial feat to conquer oases and you have some troops earlier so you don't become someone's favorite incredibly profitable 1-2 village farm.

    Upgrade costs were not mentioned and completion of upgrades are mandatory for all hammer troops at the numbers we're talking about here. The numbers are vague enough in this guide that I don't have the inclination to check if they are viable, or were excluded.

    I'd run spell/grammar-checker on your post. Misspellings abound and apostrophes have been mass-abducted.

    1200+ gold a month is insane and only necessary because this is a horribly inefficient way of building that requires instant building villages in order to catch up because you are using a collection of sub-optimal strategies.


    Lastly, it is going to be time soon for people to come around to the realization that the single-hammer setup is becoming a relic of the past, and having 2+ hammers of smaller size is much more effective, especially with the changes in 3.5 and 3.6. Zeroing an active defender with raw catapult waves is outright foolish.

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    Hey Erik, your post is well thought out, too. I think Lord Aslan could include some of your comments into his post. I agree with a few points in both, Aslan's and your posts, but I'll admit I'm too lazy to write up something myself. Plus, I haven't really played the game in a while to intelligently speak about building a mid-game hammer. If I played and started taking notes of how I do things, I could explain how to create a mid-game hammer, but my memory blows so shooting from the hip would just mislead people.

    Keep in mind, Lord Aslan is British English, which is why there are some different grammar and punctuation errors

    As for some background to Lord Aslan, he's a top player who has competed at the highest levels on several servers around the world, so his guidance is definitely worthwhile to read.

    @Lord Aslan...did you take back up modding or anything? I haven't been on any other servers besides the .us one for quite some time...and even then, I'm a useless dual who logs in once in a while now.

  16. #16
    Philosopher Sleeping Bear's Avatar
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    I agree with Aslan and Erik.

    I agree with Erik on the part of the axes over maces: axes are a lot easier to throw around, and as this guide was written with the somewhat lazy good players in mind, and maces require heavier upkeep, which means more shuffling wheat around, I think that an axe hammer would be better for this type of player.

    On Erik's last point, about the multiple hammers.. I disagree, for this type of player. A larger hammer is necessary in T3.5 and later, because of the artifacts. With this type of hammer, a player could take a unique, and then go back for seconds and thirds and/or clear for others.

    As for the point about organic growing, I agree completely... however, there is one crucial reason that you didn't get, in favor of Aslan: this player could be part of a dominant alliance. If this player is good, and they get a nice cropper, they could be a very large asset to an alliance. Especially when they tell leaders that they will get a huge midgame hammer that can help get artifacts... what alliance would turn that down?

    Aslan, good guide.

  17. #17

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    Heh, well jjjjjesse, my comments are basically antithetical to his entire guide, so I don't see how they can be included per se. At best he can hope to offer a counter-argument to them and hire an editor for his grammar and spelling (surely he can afford one if he is recommending burning $50+/month with this guide).

    He sez to focus entirely on your 2nd villa/capital for a couple months.
    I sez if you have 2 villas and still no serious military on day 60, then you are someone's farm. Full stop. And then you will fail to complete this guide. This is only avoided by hiding.

    Either hiding under strong alliance tags (which would not stop players like me from owning his account, but might stop less aggressive people from farming) and being a complete non-asset to that alliance, or by hiding out in the boonies. And note that hiding out in the boonies will delay the start up for the capital villa a fair amount.

    Also expect for your spawn to be chiefed somewhere along the way in this guide because you are epitome of a non-threatening farm. This will potentially impact the capturing of oases since your only troops are from your spawn. I was a slow grower on my last server and I was still conquering villages about 3 months in. A developed spawn of a 2-village player that becomes conquerable that early on... it will get some attention!


    He sez to not build serious troops until over 3 months into the server (except the implied spawn ones needed to capture oases and raid in order to settle within a "maximum" of 15 days).
    I sez either he paid $150 in gold to play sim city out in the boonies, or he has been a total non-contributor to an alliance for the first 3 months, and deserves to have his village farmed.


    So I wholeheartedly disagree with this very systematic, non-team oriented, and exceptionally inefficient guide from bottom to top.

    One thing I forgot to note on my first critique run-through. I laugh at the 15 day "maximum" for a 2nd villa for a simmer. Most players do not get their 2nd villa within 15 day, and it will likely take even longer for the teutons with 3.6 (conversely other tribes will advance sooner thanks to limiting of micro-raiders, but they weren't making the 15 day mark other than as rare exceptions). I recall on s4 last round the fastest settling players didn't grab their premium croppers until their day 10-11 on the server. I suspect most simmers will not be nearly so fast to expand.

    If I understand correctly, at the end of his guide, his expectation is that you are ~148 days into the server, you have a developed capital, 10 villages 'strong', and have a very respectable hammer (except no rams, that makes me want to cry) and not much else.

    That's a very small number of villas still, peers and rivals are likely to have equally more developed capitals *and* 13-15 villas, and equivalent military assets... and they won't have been useless leeches or simmers for the past 5 months, nor spent $250 in gold.

  18. #18
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    hell of a lot better inactive gold ***** build (I run it on about 3-400 a month)

    Aimed for damage dishing- , cut minis pre artifacts if going for the coveted unique speed.
    keep all artis in cap and just stack it cept for the early point when you passin stuff around for que and great warehouse/ gg

    1. fields 7 (cranny like a mofo)
    2. Expo nub ring 100% plus cropper (fourth week of server)
    3. EI tech, bp full set raids only
    4. Supply next door to cropper
    5. Bonus buildings spawn.
    6. Supply next door to cropper
    7. bp sets run out
    8. mace hunting.
    9. Finish fields 10 cropper
    10.Finish Spawn fields
    11. Spawn Prat mongering.
    12. Supply next door to cropper
    13. Supply 1 maxed.
    14. Supply 2 maxed.
    15. Party mode
    16. Supply next door to cropper
    17. 1k Prats in spawn (assuming no casualties)
    18. Nother supply, maxed 4 supplies near crop - mid month 2.
    19. Hammer - Eis Catas no imps
    20. fields 12 cropper
    - 13-14 supplies round cropper close as possible.
    Chief with in 3 hours by merch from there + settle and cata cap croppers
    multi + Mini hammers eis catas rams with big ones. - every 4 villages mini.

    Every cropper + supply = new mini

    To build - Prats, Eis, Catas -Moar rams in anything big.
    120 cata - crop kill + rally market(+ some 4fakes)
    330 - resource kill + rally market(+ some 4fakes)
    1740 - full size village 0er (+ some 4fakes) - post chiefies, very hard to use cuz of splits
    Never leggies imps ecs or scouts.
    always small party- town halls to 12
    Always embassy / acd / market / main 20 asap on field max.
    Chief own towns to stack chiefs in hammers and mini hammers.
    Ruin lots of peoples day when you jack their hammer villages.
    Great barracks / stable = complete waste, clear over 40k crop = pain in the *** to feed / to valuable for butchering people = no fun.
    Last edited by BLAH; 12-06-2009 at 04:51 AM.

  19. #19

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    My only critique of Blah's is that never using imps makes those chiefings much harder. That's costing you almost 40% of your potential oomph, and it takes that much longer to rebuild after your mini's get hurt. Much of the sexiness of multiple minis is that if a couple get hurt that's okay because you can rebuild 2 minis much faster than someone can rebuild their lone hammer. Heck, I would even run great barracks on some of my mini's. I expect them to die often so it is all about the rapid rebuilding. Course, I put 2-4 supplies per cropper for them though instead of 1, so it limits me from getting piles and piles of minis.

    Pure roman cav is pretty sexy though. I'm not sure how well it would work, but it's steamy on paper.

    p.s. Yes, SB, single hammers do still have purposes such as clearing for artifacts and WW hits when your team has screwed up and let a WW actually complete their infrastructure , but in warfare both general and WW oriented, I hope that people are going to realize the improved effectiveness of having more & smaller hammers.

    p.p.s. Shame on you SB for ninja-doubting me to finding one of the two ways that a person could try to hide while simming their way to mediocrity (hiding under scarrrrry alliance tags). I didn't miss it, I just do not respect it. Both forms of hiding have their own drawbacks. A boonie expansion slows your growth even more such that you probably won't make these deadlines.
    Seeking protection is a drain upon other players considering you are not planning to help your alliance at all for the first 5 months, cannot dream of helping them for the first 3 months, and you are a high risk target (delicious capital farm, no troops, small size-easy target) who will need protecting as well. If there are any shake-ups in an alliance, or wars that are not one-sided in your favor, then you are hosed.

  20. #20
    Philosopher Sleeping Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    My only critique of Blah's is that never using imps makes those chiefings much harder. That's costing you almost 40% of your potential oomph, and it takes that much longer to rebuild after your mini's get hurt. Much of the sexiness of multiple minis is that if a couple get hurt that's okay because you can rebuild 2 minis much faster than someone can rebuild their lone hammer. Heck, I would even run great barracks on some of my mini's. I expect them to die often so it is all about the rapid rebuilding. Course, I put 2-4 supplies per cropper for them though instead of 1, so it limits me from getting piles and piles of minis.

    Pure roman cav is pretty sexy though. I'm not sure how well it would work, but it's steamy on paper.

    p.s. Yes, SB, single hammers do still have purposes such as clearing for artifacts and WW hits when your team has screwed up and let a WW actually complete their infrastructure , but in warfare both general and WW oriented, I hope that people are going to realize the improved effectiveness of having more & smaller hammers.

    p.p.s. Shame on you SB for ninja-doubting me to finding one of the two ways that a person could try to hide while simming their way to mediocrity (hiding under scarrrrry alliance tags). I didn't miss it, I just do not respect it. Both forms of hiding have their own drawbacks. A boonie expansion slows your growth even more such that you probably won't make these deadlines.
    Seeking protection is a drain upon other players considering you are not planning to help your alliance at all for the first 5 months, cannot dream of helping them for the first 3 months, and you are a high risk target (delicious capital farm, no troops, small size-easy target) who will need protecting as well. If there are any shake-ups in an alliance, or wars that are not one-sided in your favor, then you are hosed.


    Sorry for ninja-doubting you.

    To give a brief anecdote: on us5, I am in Ratan. I can gurantee you, if people in our alliance used this method (to a certain extent, some did, focusing largely on capital fields) no one in any of the other quads, or our own, would have had the balls to attack them. Perhaps this is a generalization... but very, very, very few players would attack someone like this in Ratan. And the high wheat fields would help very much when feeding reins, in reins were given.

    I do agree with you that you should at least get a small hammer under your belt before blasting your cap... if at least to wheatlock unfriendlies in your neighborhood.

    As for not helping your alliance for a few months... like I mentioned earlier in this post, they could help feed reins, or store reins for people with large hammers already. Of course, this would slow down their own growth... but perhaps if an offensive player needed their hammer out of the way for a day or two, they could help store it.

  21. #21

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    On s4 PWNY had a couple folks focus primarily on economy too, but we had enough of a rep that they were safe. However they did not advertise their potential farmhood by crippling their village expansions for the first few months.

    Thing is, if enough players go economy, then you really aren't a dominant alliance. Just a sheep in wolf's clothing.

    And if many players do it in this guide's fashion, instead of the more effective and traditional organic growth method, then they they ruin the whole covert aspect that allows economizers to succeed without tipping people off that they are targets. This guide advertises exactly what you are doing to anyone who cares to just glance at your account from the outside. If your alliance has more than few players who still only have 2 villages and next to no troops after 2 months, and they are tying up a good cropper spot... you are going to reap some problems.

    At least with the economizers in Ratan, I am betting that externally there was no easy way to look at those accounts and say, "Oh dizzamn, look at that awesome farm!" However, if you see a 2 village account with a spawn and a capital that has been constantly growing in lieu of getting 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th or even 7th villages at the top (as can be done in the first 60 days)... you see a farm. That's outright advertising what they are doing. They're buying high level fields and cannot possibly cranny everything.

    I don't even need to scout it (but I will). I kill their warehouse, market and main building, and I will eat wheat like a king. Conquer or cripple their spawn for total domination. Their awesome capital becomes *MY* awesome farm. They are only getting out of it via external handouts. Their growth is over since the moment those reins disappear, I'm back in town again for my outrageous bounties.

    You need to have eyes on an account like that all the time (which is somewhat antithetical to the simmer nature of it since you really aren't doing much of anything action wise) because you are always at risk of being taken for a ride. The calculations given apparently assume you pour all your production into developing resources and only later into large parties, and then building troops. That means no standing garrisons to discourage raiders, and any delays of hosting defenders or allied hammers will just push the dates back farther and farther. Note, even when the hammer is complete, it is assumed that no standing defenders are necessary, and a ghost hammer would eliminate that 95k+ crop mace hammer like a puff of smoke in a breeze.

    So either you ruin the whole easy-going nature of this guide by having to remain ever vigilant for incoming attacks, or you are just watching for swords all day and night long between upgrading fields. Unless you are in the boonies, in which case, again you grow more slowly at the onset. Boonies players using the all economy-no troops model do often wind up being successful, as far as population and late game hammers go... but it is definitely an acquired taste and they are still better off not focusing on the capital only, at the onset.



    Really we might as well start off every guide:

    Join the most powerful alliance in your region and get away with whatever ill-conceived strategy you desire since you can count on allies to protect you and scare off all threats. Promise them you will be effective 5 months from now



    ... when you take over their account.

    [edit: I went to rate this thread 1 star and it sez I already rated it as a 5... absurd!]
    Last edited by Erik; 12-06-2009 at 07:34 AM.

  22. #22

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    Right, thankyou Erik, you've made some valid points which I will add in such as the axe/mace aurgument.

    Your saying however it wont work... I've been using this strategy (building to lvl 14 before 3rd village) for two years now- and now your telling me it wont work

    You THINK it wont work... I on the other hand can prove it does work. My current server where I am following this guide to the letter:

    com10, the very first 3.6 server:

    100. Lord Aslan 463 2

    1. I'm working on my lvl 10 fields atm.

    2. I have a 150% 15c.

    3. I'm right in the centre, (-67|38) is in-fact the closest 150% 15c to the centre.

    4. I am not a farm.


    I will edit the guide a bit later when I have time.

  23. #23

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    Oh, it can work, but it shouldn't. Shame on anyone who lets you get away with it. This just asserts to me that com10 needs more ambitious players.

    If it were a player in my 30x30 using this strategy, they would be my farm. Full stop. If they are still at 2 villages on day 60, have been focusing full-tilt on capital fields, and have no alliance to save em... then there is not a blessed thing they would be able to do to stop a competent aggressive player who had it in their mind to make that capital their favorite drinking spot. Even with alliance support such a setup would have pretty bad odds of survival or at the very least, maintaining any sort of viable growth.

    And later on, if I ever caught wind of a naked 90k+ hammer that I could wipe out with 12k EIs (when in all likelihood I should have a 20-30k+ EI ghost by then), and it was within 150 squares of my horsies, it would be disappear one night in a brief but mad orgy of hero XP.

    None of these hypotheticals or anecdotes change that it is a roundabout, expensive and inefficient way to get less success than traditional methods.

    You would be better off simply getting your 3rd through 7th villas and also building some military to raid and suppress your neighbors, while *also* building up your capital fields.

  24. #24
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    Fancy seeing you on here LA, finally got tired of Laika then?

    Generally all round decent guide, I'm sure I could nitpick, but no need.

    Edit:


    Lord Aslan is a former member of the UK Travian Team, he is also known as the creator of Lords and R, two alliances which dominated their servers in their primary forms.

    I can say that as a UK Player myself, he is extremely well known, and most certainly, not a farm.
    | (Silver Magister) Raven |
    - Formerly known as Lord Ravenclaw -
    - personal account, views are mine alone and not the view of any company I may represent under an alternative alias -

  25. #25

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    Erik it would seem that you base your whole aurgument of this being a failure on the fact that you would not be in the same alliance as the player using this guide. When in actuall fact the chances are extremely good that brilliant raiders will be in the best alliance in said qaudrant- a player using my guide has no reason not to be accepted into the top alliance in his qaudrant, especially seeing as he has founded his 2nd vill within 15 days and its a 125%+ 15c.

    As for players on com10 letting me get away with it- its not that there aren't brilliant players in my qaudrant... the fact is that we're all in the same alliance.

    Edit: Hey LR, I've been around on th US forums longer than you lol so not exactly just arrived

  26. #26

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    Well, I did state my main objections.

    1: It is less effective than the organic method of growing a villa. (less CPs, less Villas, less resources, lower level fields)
    2: It is less effective than the organic method of growing a military (more vulnerable, less troops for nearly 5 months)
    3: It requires heaps of extra gold in order to make up those lackings (basically running as hot as possible on the NPC with a lower capital warehouse for a tiny tiny edge in savings, and instant building almost entire supply villas)
    4: It requires one of two forms of hiding (distant location or a dominant alliance's aid even if only by reputation)

    It can be pulled off despite all four of those objections, but just because it can be done does not make it a good strategy to employ when there are superior options, and often other players using the strategy may not have the access to a dominant alliance to dwell within.

    On my last server I can think of least three 150% in my own quad alone where the owner had to fend off an aggressor who settled nearby and tried to take over.

    Anywho, my last objection (#4) which has been noted in that part of this guide requires that you be a part of the already top alliance in your quad. Once you start there, yes, pretty much any strategy, even ones that aren't optimal in any regard, are likely to work out pretty well for you. It is no wonder you can do well when by your own admission you have no dangerous adversaries to have to deal with. By default, any guide that starts with "be in the best alliance and have no dangerous opponents early on" is rather stacking the deck to begin with.


    As long as you are going the non-military route, using NPC, then I recommend for the guide upping the marketplace and buying wheat at 2:1 ratios early on so that you can constantly be generating a profit beyond your production values.


    [edit: I should add that the largest player I have ever seen made use of a variant of this guide's strategy (all economy, no troops) to end the server with a multi-village/multi-thousand population edge over the 2nd largest player in size. And he created multiple decent hammers even after losing nearly 60k in infantry to a coordinated griefer strike upon his main hammer villa in the mid game.

    He moved out to the boonies in a 150% 15c, bought tons of wheat via 2:1 as a gaul on the merchants, and he auto-completed villages to get their resources and CPs ASAP. However, he did not build up his capital village while ignoring his #3 village, because that was an inefficient use of resources. With his early villas he settled all of other good 15cs within a 20-30 square range of his capital so that he had the most resource productive village types and was converting all his resources via NPC so he had a hueueueuege economy, level 19 fields, and loads of croppers, with more villages than any other player by a good margin.

    If he had ignored his #3 and following villages in favor of devotion of his capital then he would not have been nearly so successful.]
    Last edited by Erik; 12-06-2009 at 02:23 PM.

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    Well, I did state my main objections.

    1: It is less effective than the organic method of growing a villa. (less CPs, less Villas, less resources, lower level fields)
    2: It is less effective than the organic method of growing a military (more vulnerable, less troops for nearly 5 months)
    3: It requires heaps of extra gold in order to make up those lackings (basically running as hot as possible on the NPC with a lower capital warehouse for a tiny tiny edge in savings, and instant building almost entire supply villas)
    4: It requires one of two forms of hiding (distant location or a dominant alliance's aid even if only by reputation)
    Well I've shown what you can expect to build using my method. A method that can be improved by putting in more hours - 24/7 raiding will get those fields up in half the time for example.

    You have shown no calculations that would suggest its possible to build as big an army using your strategy. But then I'm the one posting the guide so I guess I should be the one to prove my way is better, therefore I'll spend some time trying to figure out how to build a mid-game hammer using your method. Who knows, maybe it is possible to build as big an army, in which case I'll post another guide... however I'm going to have some difficulty because a lot of your method relies on 24/7 raiding and doing it all with only 80 rally point slots per village?

    Anyway I'll give it a go and see where we end up.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Aslan View Post
    Well I've shown what you can expect to build using my method. A method that can be improved by putting in more hours - 24/7 raiding will get those fields up in half the time for example.

    You have shown no calculations that would suggest its possible to build as big an army using your strategy. But then I'm the one posting the guide so I guess I should be the one to prove my way is better, therefore I'll spend some time trying to figure out how to build a mid-game hammer using your method. Who knows, maybe it is possible to build as big an army, in which case I'll post another guide... however I'm going to have some difficulty because a lot of your method relies on 24/7 raiding and doing it all with only 80 rally point slots per village?

    Anyway I'll give it a go and see where we end up.
    Please confine your cruddy guides to .uk - Your method sucks. Eriks a nice guy who showed just a few of the reasons Im and ******* who just says you suck and leaves it at that.

    There's 20 ways to go complete simmer with out even half as much gold in a far more effective manner.
    Just because you can get away with it on most servers does not mean its a solid strategy.
    Last edited by BLAH; 12-06-2009 at 08:24 PM.

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Aslan View Post
    You have shown no calculations that would suggest its possible to build as big an army using your strategy.
    Fair enough. While I do have complaints about not raiding to support a strike force to fend off competitors early on, and I am an advocate of early raiding for fueling the early jump on exponential growth, that doesn't factor into why I feel it is wasteful to focus on capital fields first. It has to do with the superior return on investment of getting extra villages.

    I didn't actually work out any calculations, I'm just going on a logical conclusion and a bit of my intuition from this tid bit...

    http://forum.travian.us/showthread.php?t=42917&page=2
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakotoa View Post
    here are productivity increase on the basis of resource cost, upkeep has been factored in.
    wood
    Level 1 = 250
    Level 2 = 138.333
    Level 3 = 139
    Level 4 = 194.167
    Level 5 = 194.5
    Level 6 = 216.667
    Level 7 = 301.389
    Level 8 = 323.571
    Level 9 = 351.744
    Level 10= 476.509

    wheat
    Level 1 = 83.3333
    Level 2 = 103.75
    Level 3 = 115.833
    Level 4 = 166.429
    Level 5 = 176.818
    Level 6 = 203.125
    Level 7 = 285.562
    Level 8 = 312.241
    Level 9 = 343.75
    Level 10= 467.685

    clay
    Level 1 = 250
    Level 2 = 140
    Level 3 = 140
    Level 4 = 195
    Level 5 = 194
    Level 6 = 216.667
    Level 7 = 301.389
    Level 8 = 323.571
    Level 9 = 398.837
    Level 10= 476.415

    iron
    Level 1 = infinity (upkeep = gain)
    Level 2 = 225
    Level 3 = 188.75
    Level 4 = 252
    Level 5 = 233.333
    Level 6 = 234
    Level 7 = 325.278
    Level 8 = 349.464
    Level 9 = 379.884
    Level 10= 514.623


    note the number is how many hours it would take to recover resource based off of cost of increase over amount of hourly output increase.
    I believe those calculations accounted for gold bonuses but not bakery/mill or oasis bonuses, and those would weight the benefits more towards the capital's increases.

    They weren't working on calculations on level 11+ fields, but the trend does remain the same, the higher level fields pay off more slowly than lower level fields.

    There is the extra cost of settlers and their infrastructure for the extra villages' low level fields, so I'd have to crunch numbers to show that the return on investment is still faster for extra villages, but knowing how horrifically slow the payout is for high level capital fields, I am confident that you get a better return by focusing on getting a few extra villages earlier than your guide suggests. Heck, in lieu of a later single field level you could instead entirely finance the creation of a new village.

    I'm still confident that given the horrific return on investment of higher level fields that it is much more beneficial for resource (and CP) production to start your 3rd and later villages sooner since they will generate resource profits faster.

    From a strategic standpoint by starting those extra villages after your capital people are unable to tell by looking at your account that you clearly have one military village (spawn) and one bread basket (capital). For a 2 village account if your spawn and capital aren't very close together, that makes you very vulnerable. Unless you get some awesome luck, then a 150% 15c isn't going to be within your 21x21.

    If you are going for the full-bore economizer route instead of militarily dominating your region then very basically what I recommend is getting your capital first of course. Raise your capital fields to around 7's with a mill and get infrastructure for small parties in the capital too so you can quickly get that 3rd villa right next to your capital. Continue to raise fields as is most efficient, and keep settling villages as fast as you can and popping up more town halls for more small parties. Keep upgrading fields, but don't overly focus on the capital so that you get your most rapid returns on investments.

    You should grow at an even faster rate, both in villages and economy. This will allow you to build an even larger army once you decide to get one.

  30. #30

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    I completely agree with Erik's arguments and really cannot add anything, other than to say that I personally would not follow this guide.

  31. #31

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    Lord Aslan, you were a top farmer for at least the first few weeks on com10. (I don't know after that, I left)

    Your guide says nothing about farming and even suggests not building any troops.

  32. #32

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    To found your village within the first 15 days suggests you need to raid I would have thought.

    Yes on com10 I was one of the first to a 2nd village, hence being able to found the 150% 15c right in the centre of my qaud. And yes I had my fields to lvl 8 or so before people started getting their 3rd villages, and yes I will have my lvl 14 fields a long time before 60 days.

    But then I'm not aiming for a mere 50k mace and 13k tk hammer

    Still busy with calculations, will post them up in a bit.

  33. #33
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    Single hammers = fail.

    For those who want a single hammer noob account anyway.
    CP investment and well used macer minis = more damaging and capable of faster hammer and cap dev for the long run.

  34. #34

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    15 days to found v2.

    At this stage you can expect to be raiding about 60k a day on a 3.6 server- being a top 10 raider.

    Academy in v2 = 20k res.
    Main Building = 7400 res.
    Town Hall = 4000 res.
    Party x2 = 40k res.

    Lets say you had a really good day's raiding and you managed to start your parties 24 hrs after founding v2.

    You'll then be wanting to build troops in v2 so you can start raiding there asap. So lets take the 20k res you have left after day 2 and build us some mace.

    20k res = 80 mace- as the new troops are being trained they'll go out raiding so we'll say they provide the res for barrack upgrades etc on day 2.

    Day 3, we can expect these 80 mace to bring in about 20k res of their own, so thats 40k res to build another 160 mace.

    Day 4, you'll stop training mace maybe - due to the rally point restrictions- and you'll upgrade your market place for some extra CP and build your residense to lvl 10.

    Day 5, You train your settlers

    6k cp needed for v3... 8 parties over the 5 days (after founding v2) over which period your two villages will have produced on average about 400 CP a day(being rediculously optimistic about raiding and being able to build a lot of CP producing buildings). Thats 2000 cp + 4000 which leaves you at 8000- perfect, now you found v3.

    Day 6, founding of vill 3 repeat everything that was done previously.

    You are now raiding 180k res a day. Will take another 6 days to before you have enough CP for v4.

    According to your theory upgrading the fields in all these vills would be best to I guess over these 6 days you can build all fields to lvl 6 with the reamining res raided after taking away costs for Parties etc? Probably possible lets see, maybe even more can be built.

    54 lvl 6 fields
    12 woodcutters = 93k res.
    12 Clay fields = 93k res.
    12 Iron mine's = 100k res.
    12 Wheat fields = 93k res.

    It looks like it should be possible to build your lvl 6 fields and found v4 6-7 days after founding v3.

    So day 27 of the server and you have your 4th village founded and you have a production of 3k an hour.

    Now all the resources it cost you to found v3 and v4 you could have used to build your fields to lvl 11 in the cropper giving you a production of 13k an hour. Let me prove it to you because your bound to think me rediculous:

    v2:

    Day 1: 60k raided res to work with.
    Barracks lvl 8 = 16k res - 5k of which can easily be payed for by the troops trained from it during the day.
    200 mace = 50k res.

    So, after day 1 of the new vill you have 200 mace, and your raiding 50k res - similar to day 2 of the above strategy.

    Day2 - 110k raided res to work with.
    All fields lvl 1 to lvl 5 = 66k res.
    Lvl 6 fields = 49k res.
    Thats a total of 115k res... considering lvl 6 fields make 900 res an hour I think over the course of the day we can assume 5k res will have been produced.

    Day 3 - 110k res raided + 21k res produced by fields = 131k res to work with.

    Grain mill lvl 3 = 24k res.
    Lvl 7 fields = 82k

    24k res remaining- lets say 20k because we had to upgrade the warehouse etc.

    Day 4 - 110k res raided + 35k res produced by fields + 20k remainder= 165k res to work with.

    lvl 8 fields = 135k
    Mill lvl 4 = 15k res.

    Thats 150k res leaving 15k.

    Day 5 110k res raided + 55k res produced by fields + 15k remainder= 180k res to work with.

    One lvl 10 field = 40k
    Lvl 5 mill = 27k
    Lvl 3 Bakery = 31k
    5 lvl 9 fields = 76k res
    = 180k res aprox.

    Day 6 (the day you found v3)
    110k res raided, + 65k res produced by fields = 175k res to work with.

    9 lvl 9 fields = 132k
    lvl 7 Hero's Mansion = 45k

    Day 7
    110k Res Raided, + 90k res produced from fields = 200k res to work with.

    lvl 7-10 HM = 70k res.
    lvl 4 Bakery = 30k res.
    Leaves 100k res to replace troops lost on oases.

    Day 8
    110k Res Raided, 120k from res production = 230k res to work with.
    9 lvl 10 fields = 223k

    Day 9
    110k res Raided, 145k from res Production = 255k res to work with.

    6 lvl 10 fields = 152k
    Bakery lvl 4 = 54k
    1 lvl 11 field = 42k
    = 248k remainder can be used for warehouse upgrade etc.

    Day 10
    110k Res Raided, 170k from Res Production= 280k to work with.

    6 lvl 11 fields upgraded = 252k
    28k remaining

    Day 11
    110k res Raided, 200k res from Production + 28k remainder = 338k to work with.

    8 lvl 11 fields = 336k

    Day 12 (day you you found v4)
    110k Res Raided, 240k res from Production = 350k res to work with.

    1 lvl 11 field = 42k res.
    lvl 15 HM = 383k res. Borrow 3 hrs production from the next day lol and your left with:

    13100 res production.

    Lets compare shall we:

    Your Method: 4 villages, max 4k production.

    My Method: 2 villages, 13k production- from just the one village.

    I can continue to where you have 6 villages and I'm sitting with 4 villages and a 40k production if you wish?

    You see, my guide did not take into account 24/7 raiding. Your method is based on 24/7 raiding. As soon as I include 24/7 raiding into my guide... well you can see from the above what happens

    Edit: Blah making statements such as single hammers being for noobs only makes you look like an idiot.

  35. #35
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    Single hammer = for ww simmer heads and noobs

    You have to split it up to break multiple things at once and thats just plain no fun.



    As for your stuff
    You offered an absolutely terrible guide for building a mid game hammer....I mean seriously 1200 gold a month , tons of raiding time commitment,
    and a full sim roman builds can nock its socks off.


    You did loads and loads of math but totally missed the cp- lower level pay off points which allow for bigger hammers and higher cap fields at a temp dev cost to cap fields.

    Sure you can make it work with a guide like this, but its still a terrible way to accomplish your objectives.
    Last edited by BLAH; 12-06-2009 at 09:28 PM.

  36. #36

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    Blah I never missed off the CP. Might help if you READ it.

    As for your roman guide - romans cant build a hammer anywhere near the strenth that tuetons can before mid-game= instant fail.

  37. #37
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    I was going by artifact drop for the roman pass point, and assuming its against people doing ******ed builds like you. Though its plausible in month 4 with mild raiding boosters.

    You're not doing your cp calcs + pay off points correctly

    I'm to lazy to dig up my old maths sheets, but its basically 8s + oasis if possible, expo - 6s - cap9s + 7s all in party expo2. All in 7s expo2, bonus point both expos, fields 11. Due to correct inf tech and parties from spawn expo3.
    Last edited by BLAH; 12-06-2009 at 09:35 PM.

  38. #38

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    Er, as I keep saying, raiding never enters into my basic argument about economy of capital fields versus 3rd+ villages.

    I'm just comparing raw production costs and benefits, and whether you raid shouldn't really matter other than that if you get resources too fast then you won't have the CP for new villages and will be forced into buying higher level fields while you wait.

    I'll grant that you may want to get higher fields than level 7 in the cap before expanding, if you do that then the added wait shaves off a bit of the cost factored into parties for the next village. I'll try to calculate how high capital fields should go before popping villa 3, and as I look at the numbers more, I fear I may be siding a lot closer with your estimates for field production than I expected, since I underestimated how horribly the village start up costs eat into your efficiency. Oh well, onto the calculations- I'd rather be right in the future than think I was right in the past...

    At your estimate of 28 days for getting level 10 fields in the capital (with 50% mill/bakery and 50% from a wheat oasis), you should have naturally gained enough CPs to attain village number 3.

    Your calculations look a little more complex than is necessary, and taking into account raiding and income isn't necessary. It is all about returns on investment. It's a pretty simple equation.

    You will need:
    Res 10 (60k)
    teut Settlers 3 (75k)

    Make villa 3 a 6/4/4/4, though it isn't the optimal villa, they are common enough.
    And as a benchmark, say Level 6 Fields (118k)

    [note, all my calculations assume the 25% gold bonuses]

    That would give you 937 resources/hr 1125 res/hr (oops, I did maths wrong)

    So 253k for 1125 resources/hr. Yech. Now all we need to do is figure out if at any point in your guide, there is a time where you are investing at an inferior ratio of investment to production. At that point, you should opt to get the extra village instead, because it is more profitable, and it gives you more CPs and other fringe benefits.

    Thanks to the magic of extra oases and bonus buildings, levels 11-12, and the 2nd oasis/HM 15 come in at very respectable return rates.

    A level 12 field with a 50% mill/bakery and 100% oases comes in at 70k with an increase of 356 res/hr.
    356/70k is a better ration than 1125/253k by a goodly margin (5.06 versus 4.45)

    So level 12 fields are still a good buy before your 3rd village.

    A level 13 field with 50% mill/bakery and 100% oases comes in at 117k for a gain of 450 res/hr.
    450/117k is a worse ratio than 1125/253k by a goodly margin (3.83 versus 4.45!)

    So level 13 fields are a bad buy compared to the new village and lower level fields.

    In fact, at that point you may have enough CPs to lay down multiple villages, especially if you kept the small parties burning. Just gotta figure out if the costs for Town hall infrastructure + parties makes it still more profitable to get those extra villas and low level fields. Once level 12's are done, it is wisest then to begin laying down your extra villas, as you are able.

    It's a bit later than I expected, but it is well before the 3rd oasis is grabbed.

    The sliding scale moves closer towards settling sooner if you aren't an uber player and it took a month to get your 2nd villa and you grabbed a 50/25/25 oasis 15c.


    So I am eating some crow on my economy argument since I thought it was well before level 12 fields, but I don't have to eat the whole dish since I wasn't entirely wrong. Level 13 fields on upwards are a bad buy compared to a new village. It will be worthwhile to upgrade the level 13+ fields once you either 1) run out of CPs and have to wait anyway, or 2) the cost of party infrastructure gets high enough that level 13 fields swing back into dominance.

    By the guide's time frame you can shave at least 13 days off of when you are getting your 3rd+ villas which helps a lot on the safety front as well, since that is almost 2 weeks less for someone to get it in their mind to settle near to your capital to prep a take over (I say you, as in an anonymous person following the guide, not you personally Aslan =-)


    On the vulnerability argument. It is still scary to only have 2 villas, especially non-adjacent ones. But that scare factor is cut way down if you build a 3rd villa before level 13's.

    It is heartening to hear that you intend to have at least a mace raiding force out of the capital. The tone of the guide was suggesting that the entirety of your resource production was poured solely into upgrading fields, and that's a big part of it that I did not like. Having a capital raiding crew will help pacify the surrounding area somewhat. I think it still makes you a target for anyone ballsy enough to throw a few hundred cavalry your way, but meh.

    If someone follows this guide and doesn't have their own local pacification force (personally or friend-operated), and takes that long to get to villa #3, then I predict it will be a rough time for them. If they have an aggressive neighbor who is focusing more on military then they will have to go off the rails from the guide and respond accordingly. If an Erik spawned in your neighborhood then you would certainly have to deal with them because nobody likes having an a-hole (me) who starts crop killing multiple people daily starting around day 30, and has a hard-on for force-deleting teuts who look to be doing at all well in his region (it tends to rain hundreds of cavalry at all sorts of hours upon those poor teuts).

    Sometimes you may have 2 or more pre-spawn groups who each decide that they deserve a 150% 15c, and it won't be a guarantee that your pre-spawn group is stronger than theirs. With serious opposition, it rarely pays to put yourself in a position of vulnerability.

    The organic military argument is basically that if you get that villa #3 earlier, then you don't need to have an overwhelming amount of macemen from the capital since instead you can start producing them from villa #3 as an early jump on your hammer and hopefully use axes. You can start producing those hammer troops earlier and use more wheat efficient units (axe over mace) so that you are not pressured to spam maces due to a limited build time, and of course remove unfriendlies, and be self reliant for your own well-being.
    Last edited by Erik; 12-07-2009 at 05:07 AM. Reason: I miscalculated the resources/hr of level 6 fields since I had 15 fields on the mind (instead of 18)... to my position's detriment... so I am revising my post for the new math and some new calcs.

  39. #39

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    1200gold per month and 3+ hrs required per day.... wtf...

    I'm not going to repeat/summaries all the other critiques...

    But essentially this a totally inefficient system... requiring outrageous amount of gold... and an above average time commitment...

    For what is a non participating account until artifact time... requiring a strong alliance to keep protected...


    I hate non partipating accounts, unless you're a newb learning the ropes.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baghernia View Post
    1200gold per month and 3+ hrs required per day.... wtf...

    I'm not going to repeat/summaries all the other critiques...

    But essentially this a totally inefficient system... requiring outrageous amount of gold... and an above average time commitment...

    For what is a non participating account until artifact time... requiring a strong alliance to keep protected...


    I hate non partipating accounts, unless you're a newb learning the ropes.

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