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Thread: Guide: Pure Sim to Village 2

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    Consul Wren's Avatar
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    Default Guide: Pure Sim to Village 2

    There seems to be pretty strong interest in the viability of getting to a second village in a reasonable amount of time without needing to build troops and raid. It is, of course, entirely possible. However, what many don't realize is that you can streamline the process to settle at a competitive pace.

    Warnings/Comments/Suggestions:
    1 - First and foremost, if you're active enough to raid, raid. Unless you throw troops away at a high rate, early-round raiding is the quickest and most effective way to get to settlers.
    2 - The system proposed below is worked out without trading for profit. While there's something to be said for the time value of resources, upgrading your marketplace and offering/buying 2:1 trades will help you along this process faster.
    3 - The own-production is calculated with the 25% gold bonuses active.
    4 - The guide is written assuming that you can and will NPC without question as needed to get builds going as soon as possible. Small tweaks (personalization) of the build order, especially combined with minor raiding and/or trading can drastically limit NPC gold expenditure.
    5 - I used Gauls as the basis of this guide. This is for two reasons: the double-deep cranny and none of the mathematical complication of the Roman double build. Romans allow for the extra crannies to be built simultaneously with the fields, but at (obviously) extra cost.
    6 - While this is a guide to show how to quickly get to village two without raiding or trading, it does not mean that it's intended for inactive players. It requires quick reaction to available resources, optimizing production.
    7 - The math suggests that you can get your settlers within 27 days. However, less NPC-ing or letting resources sit when they could be used to build fields (and upgrade production), will extend the process.
    8 - The flour mill has not been taken into account, but do Kirilloid suggests that level one should be built near the end of level 6's.

    Basic Strategy:
    It's simple. Build fields and almost nothing else.

    The only buildings you'll buy are: Rally Point level 1, Main Building level 5, Granary level 7, Warehouse level 8, Marketplace level 1, and Embassy level 3. Any other construction is wasteful.

    With the exception of the starting infrastructure and the CP-heavy Embassy, all buildings should be built as late as possible (after as many fields as you can support). That means crannies only to cover warehouse/granary, which in turn are only to be built high enough to allow for the next field.

    Build Order:
    I'll take you through the quests here. The rest of it, in the order I used (minimizing time, making sure 2k CP are ready as settlers become ready), is available on the excel file (google doc version).

    Day 1
    • MB lvl 2, 3
    • Granary lvl 1
    • Warehouse lvl 1
    • Wheat lvl 1 (x2)
    • Marketplace lvl 1
    • MB lvls 4-5
    • Wood lvl 1
    • Wheat lvl 1
    • Quests 1-4
    • Wheat lvl 1
    • Clay lvl 1
    • Iron lvl 1
    • Quests 5-8
    • Wheat lvl 1 (x2)

    Day 2
    • Wood lvl 1
    • Clay lvl 1
    • Iron lvl 1
    • Quest 9
    • Wood lvl 1 (x2)

    Day 3
    • Clay lvl 1 (x2)
    • Iron lvl 1 (x2)
    • Quests 10-13
    • Wheat lvl 2 (x2)
    • Cranny lvl 1
    • Quest 14
    • Wood lvl 2
    • Clay lvl 2
    • Iron lvl 2
    • Quest 15
    • Wheat lvl 2 (x3)

    Day 4
    • Quest 16
    • Wheat lvl 2
    • Quest 17
    • Wood lvl 2
    • Embassy lvl 1
    • Quest 18
    • Wood lvl 2 (x2)
    • Quest 19 (E)
    • Cranny lvl 2, 3
    • Quest 20 (E)
    • Cranny lvls 4-5
    • Quest 21 (E)
    • Cranny lvls 6-8

    Day 5
    • Clay lvl 2 (x3)
    • Iron lvl 2 (x3)
    • Embassy lvl 2
    • Quests 22-24
    • Embassy lvl 3

    Days 6-8
    • Fields to lvl 3
    • RP lvl 1
    • Cranny lvls 9-10

    Days 9-12
    • Gran lvls 2-3
    • Ware lvls 2-3
    • Fields to lvl 4
    • Gran lvl 4
    • Ware lvl 4
    • Res lvl 1

    Days 12-14
    • 14 Fields to lvl 5

    Day 15
    • Gran lvl 5
    • Ware lvl 5
    • Res lvl 2
    • last 4 Fields to lvl 5

    Day 16
    • Cranny lvls 1-10
    • Res lvl 3
    • Gran lvl 6-7
    • Ware lvl 6-8

    Days 17-20
    • Fields to lvl 6
    • Res lvls 4-6
    • Cranny lvls 1-7

    Days 20-24
    • Fields to lvl 7
    • Res lvl 7
    • Cranny lvls 8-10
    • Res lvl 8

    Day 25
    • Cranny lvls 1-9
    • Res lvl 9
    • Cranny lvl 10
    • Res lvl 10

    Days 26-28
    • Settler (x3)


    Again, see the excel file (google doc version) for all the details. Population at settlers should be 215.
    Last edited by Wren; 02-26-2010 at 04:18 PM.
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  2. #2

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    The embassy to 3 is for cps? I assume the residence after level 4 is for the same reason?
    Hi.

  3. #3

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    The marketplace looks to be skipped in the build order. It's present on the spreadsheet but missing from the forum post. Also I'd recommend multiple levels of marketplace for better trading and CP. Anywho, some text mentioning what is in the spreadsheet version of the build order might be handy, or just a faithful recopy of the entire build order. Stuff where a single building is upgraded repeatedly could be like "Cranny 2-10" in order to save space. (2-10 instead of 1-10? Wha? Sounds like foreshadowing...)


    For the flour mill, I think you were looking at the 9c stats instead of the 6/4/4/4 stats for when to build the flour mill (I dunno why the default is 9c on that site).

    If I'm reading it correctly, then it goes:
    6/6/6/6/ 5/5 wheat fields, then flour 1
    7/7/7/7/7/7 then flour 2
    8/8/8/8/8/8 then flour 3





    Lastly as far as build order goes there's an efficiency matter that I always love to point out.
    Not counting the 4 level 10 crannies Wren recommends, you have 8 building spots that you need available for Rally, Res, MB, Granny, WH, Market, Embassy, Flour Mill.





    That leaves 13 spots for crannies!



    I'd recommend filling your empty village spots with level 1 crannies (since 10 of them are as good as 1 level 10 cranny, but much cheaper). Also, easy CP for any of those empty spots. A level 1 cranny is almost as effective resources per CP as a level 1 embassy. (1 CP/130 res vs 1 CP/128 res), but there is no upkeep for level 1 crannies so they actually win out on the resource comparison after 3 days.

    So ideally you build your level 10 cranny, and then fill every spot you aren't going to use with a level 1 cranny (so you have 1 level 10 cranny and 12 level 1 crannies). And then promote a level 1 cranny to level 10 as needed until you have 4x level 10 crannies and 9x level 1 crannies.



    So by your second villa you will have built:
    All Resources 7
    Main Building 5
    Warehouse 8
    Granary 7
    Marketplace 5 (extra levels for more CP and for putting multiple 2:1 trades up for easy free resources)
    Residence 10
    Flour Mill 2
    Rally Point 1 (necessary for sending settlers to new tile and necessary for hiding your settlers in the traps of a gaul friend... everyone needs a gaul friend)
    Embassy 3 (cuz Wren sez you need it fer CP... it also gets rebates from quests)
    Cranny 10 (x3)
    Cranny 1 (x10) (just as effective as another level 10 cranny but 1/3rd the cost and 10 CP instead of 6 CP, and no upkeep)

    After you get your second villa you can quickly demolish via a level 10 main building those extra level 1 crannies to put in real infrastructure.


    Not a gaul? =-(

    If a roman or teuton and not a gaul, then you will usually have to promote more crannies than just those 3 level 10's. =-( It's a pain and it will slow down your progress since each level 10 cranny costs about 5k resources. The good part is that you only really need the top layer of crannies when you are saving up for settlers, so you don't have to slow early production with them. They basically just add on 3 hours per level 10 cranny once you have your level 7 fields and 2 flour mill (almost 1600/hr production is marvelous).

    Tactical notes:

    As a gaul you may want to leave out 1 cranny spot to make a trapper so you can help friends hide their settlers in your villa, since you will want to find someone who can do the same favor for you. I don't recommend using a trapper as a real line of defense in this guide. Just as a settler storage pen if you find a friend in need. This can be built later if needed.

    A note for the success of a simmer is that your chances of surviving go way down the later you start this guide into a server. Frustrated farmers who have catapults are likely to crop kill you in the hopes that your warehouses may finally fill past cranny coverage. Or just out of rage at wasting their precious rally point time with your salacious resources that they keep scouting. So ideally you want to start this guide on day 1 of a server. An upside to starting later is that you can make bigger trades for 2:1 resources since players will have larger stockpiles, but you are in greater danger of getting catapulted by someone like me who isn't interested in long term success and will have a scary army+catapults before second villa.

    Your best hope if you do find such a nasty neighbor is to negotiate for future chiefing of your starter villa such that they won't want to mess it up with their catapults. If your intent is to leave the area entirely, most expert players won't be nearly as concerned with your presence and welcome the availability of a developed village that they can chief early on (since chiefing with just 1 conquering unit requires many trips and generally only works on willing, inactive or directly adjacent targets).
    Last edited by Erik; 02-26-2010 at 05:11 PM. Reason: I had wheat fields for flour mill at 6/6/6/6/6 /5 incorrectly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    I'd recommend filling your empty village spots with level 1 crannies (since 10 of them are as good as 1 level 10 cranny, but much cheaper).
    correct me if I am wrong, but does not the system require you build a cranny to level 10 before you can build a second?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Midnight View Post
    correct me if I am wrong, but does not the system require you build a cranny to level 10 before you can build a second?
    Indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    So ideally you build your level 10 cranny, and then fill every spot you aren't going to use with a level 1 cranny
    So yeah. Build up that first one, and then throw down lots of level 1's. Later you advance one of the level 1's to 10 as needed.

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    Villager Mr. Midnight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    Indeed.



    So yeah. Build up that first one, and then throw down lots of level 1's. Later you advance one of the level 1's to 10 as needed.
    ah ok. I have never built more than one cranny in any village so I didn't know that you could make multiple lvl 1 crannies instead of bringing them up to 10 one at a time.
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    Consul Wren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    So yeah. Build up that first one, and then throw down lots of level 1's. Later you advance one of the level 1's to 10 as needed.
    The potential problem with that strategy is CP. I'd rather have the resource and CP production of fields over the CP and cost of multiple low level crannies.
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    http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...=0&output=html

    Google hosted spreadsheet, for those who don't want to download it or don't happen to have MS Office.
    Remember, this is an online forum. I have just as much poo to fling as you do.

    http://forum.travian.us/attachment.p...1&d=1247465912

    Quote Originally Posted by MokMonster View Post
    So if you can suck a golf bar through a garden hose and are willing to do so for the biggest/safest/most-survivalist man around, you will most likely live as long as he will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Comrade View Post
    http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...=0&output=html

    Google hosted spreadsheet, for those who don't want to download it or don't happen to have MS Office.
    good man!

    link incorporated into guide post.

    Quote Originally Posted by wowza View Post
    The embassy to 3 is for cps? I assume the residence after level 4 is for the same reason?
    Yes, embassy for culture. No, residence is for settlers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    The marketplace looks to be skipped in the build order. It's present on the spreadsheet but missing from the forum post.
    thanks, fixed
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wren View Post
    The potential problem with that strategy is CP. I'd rather have the resource and CP production of fields over the CP and cost of multiple low level crannies.
    Hunh? That isn't the trade-off at all. The crannies do not interfere with infrastructure or fields.

    By your spreadsheet you had 4x level 10 crannies. I am showing that it is more efficient to have 10x level 1 crannies instead of building your 2nd level 10 cranny. It costs 1/3 the resources (1300 vs ~5000), gives 4 more CP/day, costs 5 less population tax, and gives the exact same protection. It is even faster to build the level 1's, if you care about such things.

    As long as you have the room for them (and you do), it is more efficient to get lots of level 1 crannies first.

    Getting 2x level 10 crannies versus 1x level 10 and 10x level 1, it is superior in every way to go with lots of level 1's. In fact what you will do is buy one cranny to level 10, and then 12 crannies to level 1. Giving more protection than that next level 10, more CP, and costing much less.

    It remains true that getting 4x level 10 crannies is less efficient than 3x level 10 crannies and 10x level 1 crannies. More CP, more resources, less population. A win on every front.

    There seriously is no way to argue against the swarm of level 1 crannies except on the grounds that you need the room... and we do not.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wren View Post
    Yes, embassy for culture. No, residence is for settlers.



    thanks, fixed
    Wouldn't it make sense to build up the fields all the way to 7 before starting the residence? You dont get the return on the resources as quickly if you start using resources to build the residence
    Hi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wren View Post
    1 - First and foremost, if you're active enough to raid, raid. Unless you throw troops away at a high rate, early-round raiding is the quickest and most effective way to get to settlers.
    This might not be true for non-Teutons. Given the expense of Roman troops and their inability to cranny-dip, raiding might not be the best way to invest your resources even if you are very active. I'm on day 14 and I'm interested in seeing whether or not I beat day 23 to 3 settlers.

    One thing you do lose while simming is the development time for your hero. Is that loss of the first two or three weeks early game significant or negligible?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wowza View Post
    Wouldn't it make sense to build up the fields all the way to 7 before starting the residence? You dont get the return on the resources as quickly if you start using resources to build the residence
    need the CP.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabbatine View Post
    This might not be true for non-Teutons. Given the expense of Roman troops and their inability to cranny-dip, raiding might not be the best way to invest your resources even if you are very active. I'm on day 14 and I'm interested in seeing whether or not I beat day 23 to 3 settlers.

    One thing you do lose while simming is the development time for your hero. Is that loss of the first two or three weeks early game significant or negligible?
    Romans actually can make pretty good raiders early on. Legos are decent raiders in 3.5+ with their cheaper costs and greater carrying capacity. EI's are phenomenal raiders however, and once you get that cavalry you can start pounding everyone for major bounties (especially the poor teutons).

    The loss of hero XP is negligible. Really in the first few months and levels, it is only a few hundred kills here or there. Level 20 is just 21000 kills. That's nothing by early mid game, and that gets you 20% offense, 2 regen and 3 attack. You can grab early kills off newbies and oases once you get a few thousand troops and get to level 20 very quickly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    It remains true that getting 4x level 10 crannies is less efficient than 3x level 10 crannies and 10x level 1 crannies. More CP, more resources, less population. A win on every front.

    There seriously is no way to argue against the swarm of level 1 crannies except on the grounds that you need the room... and we do not.
    Then my distaste is unfounded. I'm not thrilled with the concept of recommending something that would be immediately torn down without even including the lvl 10 MB in the plan.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wren View Post
    Then my distaste is unfounded. I'm not thrilled with the concept of recommending something that would be immediately torn down without even including the lvl 10 MB in the plan.
    Not immediately torn down. They won't be torn down until you have your 2nd villa well under way. As soon as you get that 2nd villa, everything should pour into raising your fields up, up and away. The big downside to simming post 2nd villa acquisition is that capturing the oases will be a pain as you are starting a military from scratch... possibly in your capital. =-(

    When you are ready to tear the crannies down, then you are likely going to be jonesing for more CP and resources from your spawn (since that is what you will need room for), so the level 10 MB is necessary to get a Town Hall anyway and the waste for losing them is minimal as they are only 130 a pop. By the time you tear them down, that is seriously like 2 minutes of production apiece, possibly less.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by wowza View Post
    The embassy to 3 is for cps? I assume the residence after level 4 is for the same reason?
    Quote Originally Posted by Wren View Post

    Yes, embassy for culture. No, residence is for settlers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wren View Post
    need the CP.
    text
    Hi.

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    Consul Wren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wowza View Post
    text
    ooooohhhhh

    I thought you meant after residence level 4, not fields level 4.
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  19. #19

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    The guide is okay, I guess.

  20. #20

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    I think the build order is a bit hinky.

    Getting MB 5 early slows development and you need a level 2 wheat field before finishing level 1 fields since the quests do not expect you to get a market first.

    So I recommend delaying MB4-5 and it is required to get at least one lev 2 wheat before getting your last lev 1 iron (so you may as well get that lev 2 wheat before the last 2 lev 1 iron, clay, and woods since the payoff is better when you account for pop tax).


    [edit]in fact, is there a compelling reason to get the Market, MB, WH and granary early at all? If you just stick to the quest you get all level 1 fields on the first day and maybe a few level 2 fields as well. I am on iPod and cannot check the math right now but I suspct the rewards are balanced enough that an early market+infra is not needed.

    Get moar fields, spend less gold. Seems like a win.
    Last edited by Erik; 02-16-2010 at 12:31 AM.

  21. #21

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    Hokay, I started up a lazy roman sim account on us4 2 days ago and here's my impressions so far.



    1) Just do the quests stupid.
    1a) There is no good reason to build all that infrastructure first.

    Building the MB2-3, Granary, Warehouse and Marketplace cost enough resources (equivalent cost to getting 5 level 1 fields) and population that if I had skipped those I could have easily completed all level 1 fields with the starting resources and rewards such that it would be done in well under 24 hours. Instead I had to wait nearly 20 extra hours for resources to pile up to finish them off, and due to the extra population from infrastructure I had to build a level 2 wheat field before finishing off the last of the level 1 fields and another extra level 2 wheat field before getting the first set of level 2 wood/clay/iron. If I had built level 4 and 5 main building on top of that as the guide suggests... ugh. It would have been a nightmare. Those 4th and 5th MB levels are worth 905 resources... that's more than 3 level 1 fields! So following the guide to the letter puts you back over 8 fields worth of resources.

    If I had simply built up fields ASAP by following the quest guide to the letter, that would have netted me probably an extra 100-200 resources due to having fields sooner. the extra CP generated by early infrastructure are so nominal they are not worth mentioning. So unless I got really lucky on the market trades, I would not expect to be more profitable by having a marketplace early.

    In fact, I have had abysmal luck trying to make a profit on the market.


    2) Roman merchants get no love

    I was utterly unable to make a profit off the marketplace because nobody apparently wants to buy my wood, even if they pay me with crappy iron. Maybe once the newbs on the outer ring with me finally get their own marketplaces I will be able to trade with the non-NPC-gold users around there. But for now, nobody wants to make <4 hour distance trades at a loss. No doubt a gaul trader will have much better success since their merchants are vastly superior to romans. I've even tried 2:3 ratio trades instead of 1:2, still no takers. Meh.


    3) I'm still doing okay.

    I started just a bit after midnight after Sunday so I have the newb rankings to let me know how I am competing with the other simmers who started at the same time. So far I've been pretty competitive in or near the top 10 the whole time considering I am not raiding any easy resources at all. If I had just followed the quest guide I would be about 2-3 population up on where I am now as I would have garnered a few hundred extra resources enough to put my growth on a slightly faster pace. Still, under 48 hours later I had completed the economy quest path and was working on level 2 fields (more than halfway done). So I am on equal footing with the other folks who followed the quest guide properly since they had to save up and buy the infrastructure that I started with.

    From here on out the only things that will set me apart from other folks is success at raiding (no) and on success on marketplace profits (none yet).

    Well, that and a lesser edge from doing gold % bonus (yes), instant builds on fields (no, no, no), and NPCing at the earliest possible convenience to get fields sooner (no, I have only NPC'd like 3-4 times, and usually that was with the hope of making a pile of wood that someone would pay for with exhorbitant amounts of iron).

    I am trying to do a lazy approach that does not burn much gold, nor require much time on my part. Seriously, 3-4 log ins a day where I just queue up some fields a couple times and I'm good to go. Later on this week I will not even need to log in that much for fields. I figure if you are going to sim, then you must not want to fool around online very long.

  22. #22

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    Sim diary, day 9:

    Well, I started over a week ago, more observations.

    The google doc is missing the most useful feature: a general time line. Anyone following a guide is always eager to see how they are doing. I'm simming it in my own style so not really following the guide, but in the interest of comparison it'd be interesting to compare paces. I'm hoping that perhaps I will have free time this weekend to write up my own optimized build order and time line and share that up on google docs perhaps.

    I didn't get a newb award at the end of the week. Unsurprisingly over the last 3 days of the week the raiders outdistanced me in population by a good 20-100 points (top grower was fairly impressive). This should shock nobody.

    I finished level 4 fields early this morning, putting my population in the 90's and production-pop around 400/hr. Already have 1700 cranny coverage and 1200 storage, so I am unconcerned about being raided even when I have my small trades up on the marketplace.

    Nevertheless, my useless rat still lives. Zero attacks still. =-( Just by simming am #2 pop in my 13x13, with the next closest people falling far behind. I guess that intimidates people unnecessarily. Still, I have done nothing special beyond buying %gold bonuses and doing the NPC a few times. Every simmer who starts out should totally be doing this well. Gauls ought be doing even better since I practically wasted a whole day on getting my first cranny to 8 before BP ran out.

    So far have made 13 trades on the market for a profit of 1300 res. Not really that great, but roman merchants are balls. I'd expect far greater results as a gaul. As it is the markets are barely paying for themselves and their consumption + rat consumption. At least they are generating CPs though, and necessary anyway for the rare NPC.

    I'd estimate from the first week I scored in the neighborhood of 250 CP. Once I grab my embassy levels and a couple more market levels, that should boost the CP/day a fair bit. I expect to score about 450 CP in week 2. That will put me needing 1300 CP over weeks 3 and 4 combined. Doable methinks, especially if I go for some level 8 fields as I intend.

    Now to gaze into the future!


    Level 5 fields cost in the 2000res neighborhood, so that's 5 hrs per field starting up (I ignore iron higher prices since they are at the end when you have higher production from other new fields... it balances out). Call it 4 days to finish those since I'll throw down some other infrastructure (couple more market levels, embassy quests, and finish my cranny creep colonies, 2nd level on warehouse/granary so they don’t overflow between my rare log ons).


    So... on day 13 I'll be working on level 6 fields.

    My level 5 field production -pop tax will be in the neighborhood of 625/hr. Level 6 fields take about 3250 resources, so it is in the neighborhood of 5 hours/field again. Just by fields we're looking at nearly 4 days. Upside is that those level 6 fields are a big jump in production and give extra CPs. A little more infrastructure is needed. There will also be the flour mill and more infrastructure- WH/Gran to 3... and for non gauls raise up one of those level 1 crannies to 10 for safe keeping (putting cranny coverage at 3100= 11x lev1, 2x lev10, 80%=2480... enough to make you feel safe even going to bed with trades on the market)

    Wren's sim guide has level 7 G and 8 WH pre-level 6 fields... I have no idea what that is about as you don't need those high levels until settler time. Their cost plus the early residence levels costs about 4x level 6 fields... that's a pretty huge delay. Level 3 warehouse gives you 2300 storage when at most you need 1300 for the iron at the end of your level 6 fields. Grain mill needs 1240 wheat, so at least a level 2 Granary, a level 3 Granary will give you more leeway for crop piling up if you get your wheat fields and flour mill first to optimize production So level 3 storage will do nicely at this point.

    So, call it 4 days to finish level 6 fields, flour mill, a tidy bit of infrastructure. Maybe a few more market levels to put it to MP 6 or 8.

    Day 17

    About 1000 resource/hr production after pop tax.
    Level 7's are 5400ish apiece. 5.5 hr's per field. Some more minimal infrastructure and another flour mill level will put the timeline at about 4 and a half days. You know the drill.

    Day 21
    Level 7 fields done. Rocking production. Over 1400/hr after pop tax. Another +18 CP bump from all those fields too.

    At that point I'll gauge my feelings and the depths of my soul and decide whether I wanna build up several level 10 crannies, WH/Gran, Residence, and then settlers, or if I just wanna spend another 6 days on fields finish up all the level 8 fields to get about 2100 res/hr production.

    If I recall, it's ~140k for the Residence and Settlers. That'll be <3 days of simming with level 8's versus 4.5 days of simming with the level 7's. My big concern is that I'd rather not have to get 9x level 10 crannies and instead play it a little fast and loose with slightly lower cranny coverage by upping production so I can just put eyes on the account when resources>80% cranny coverage while saving for settlers. Shaving down the time I need to save up resources with faster production will make it so I only have to worry about resources too high for a couple hours a day 3x over 2 days. With level 7's that nervous period will last at least a few hours longer.

    So the trade off is getting that 2nd villa at day 30 instead of around 25-26, but less nervousness and having level 8 fields to raise the marketplace to send resources like crazy to villa #2.

    Whew. Anywho, yeah. I'll see about making an alternative build order guide to optimize things. Definitely a simmer should be getting villa #2 before the 4th week of the server ends if they start on day 1. That's pretty decent considering on s4 we are in week 4 and 2nd villas are still rare and 150%'s are barely half-taken. If I had started on day 1 as a pure simmer I would be about ready to settle villa #2 right now. That is crazy.

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    wall.
    Up one tile to lvl10 of each resources so you can build brickyard/sawmill/iron foundry?I mean when you got to lvl8 fields might as well consider how that would pay off?I am sure it would extend the time in which you land your 2nd village but am too lazy to do the calculations on how much that would help your production

  24. #24

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    It would boost production a bit but since I am going roman and need all that cranny space I would have to either leave spots empty or get a 10 MB and clear some land. Stuff I do not want to bother with until villa 2 is made. The time for the level 9-10 fields will add at least another day or two.

    [edit: I did the math for costs & production increase for the level 9-10 + 15% production building bonus (at 15% it is more efficient to raise fields more than get the 20% next)...

    It adds 218 res/hr per field type, so for boosting iron, clay and wood you would grab +654 res/hr. The cost however is pretty steep and you are even required to get another 2 warehouse levels to get level 10 fields. The costs for those 3x level 9 fields, 3x level 10 fields, 3x +15% res buildings and level 9-10 warehouse comes in the neighborhood of 150k resources. So for just getting those upgrades you could straight-up get your 2nd villa.

    The +654 res/hr bump changes your production such that once you are done you can then sim up the 140k needed for Res10/3x Settlers in about 2 days instead of about 3 days with level 8's. I'm not even sold on getting level 8's, so the level 10's to get +% buildings seems far too time consuming.
    Last edited by Erik; 02-25-2010 at 01:22 PM.

  25. #25
    Philosopher Greenman's Avatar
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    It's definitely worth noting how much of the 27 days is spent building and how much is spent waiting for more resources.

    For 19.5 days, nothing is being built. This should be some incentive for making a profit on marketplace trades.
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  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wren View Post
    Build Order:
    I'll take you through the quests here. The rest of it, in the order I used (minimizing time, making sure 2k CP are ready as settlers become ready), is available on the excel file (google doc version).

    Day 1
    • MB lvl 2, 3
    • Granary lvl 1
    • Warehouse lvl 1
    • Wheat lvl 1 (x3)
    • Marketplace lvl 1
    • MB lvls 4-5
    • Wood lvl 1
    • Wheat lvl 1
    • Quests 1-4
    • Wheat lvl 1
    • Clay lvl 1
    • Iron lvl 1
    • Quests 5-8
    • Wheat lvl 1 (x2)
    I found a discrepancy between the google doc build order and the one described in the OP. On day one, in between the warehouse and marketplace, is it two wheat fields, or three?
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tifforo View Post
    I found a discrepancy between the google doc build order and the one described in the OP. On day one, in between the warehouse and marketplace, is it two wheat fields, or three?
    two.
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  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wren View Post
    two.
    But the OP still says three

    Regardless, good work.

    The one thing I'm confused about is that a person would be serious enough to buy gold for this plan but not serious enough to be a raider.

    I'm assuming that getting a warehouse and whatnot before getting level 1 clay pit is for CP. I would think, however, that based on the speed with which a person was getting resources, getting the CP generation up early would either be more important or less important; so for a pure simmer without buyying gold, the warehouse might come after level 1 fields (unless trading was that lucrative), whereas a person with some raiding income would probably want to get their embassy to a higher level since they would get the required resources for a second village sooner and would need to get the CP sooner as well.
    Last edited by Tifforo; 02-26-2010 at 04:15 PM.
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  29. #29
    Consul Wren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tifforo View Post
    But the OP still says three
    Ooops, wrong wheat field group. fixt

    Quote Originally Posted by Tifforo View Post
    The one thing I'm confused about is that a person would be serious enough to buy gold for this plan but not serious enough to be a raider.
    No idea. Honestly, it's more of a good guide to supplement (use the build order) raiding or trading.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tifforo View Post
    I'm assuming that getting a warehouse and whatnot before getting level 1 clay pit is for CP..
    marketplace pre-req
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  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wren View Post
    marketplace pre-req
    Oh, for NPC Merchant, forgot about that.

    (It's been too long since I actually played this game )
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  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tifforo View Post
    The one thing I'm confused about is that a person would be serious enough to buy gold for this plan but not serious enough to be a raider.
    I'm simming on us4 right now. I do not have time to seriously raid, so I buy gold and sim. I haven't needed to burn much on NPCing. Simming is serious business. I will get 2nd villa in under a month from account start and that's not bad.

  32. #32

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    I am currently on Day 28. Fields are all Level 7 and Residence Level 10. I am currently just saving up for first settler. I am a little behind pace because I accidentally added an Academy and Flour Mill (I really have no idea why.) I currently have 2074 CP's, so I would have had more than enough without those extra buildings. I have not been attacked in two weeks and have four fully built crannies and six more around Level 3. (That was a good tip on adding lower level crannies, Erik.)

    EDIT: I have gotten 0 resource from marketplace trades and I did do the quests.
    Last edited by JD70; 02-26-2010 at 05:10 PM.

  33. #33

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    I just ran some numbers while working on my optimized sim guide spreadsheet, and while it is not done yet the tentative outcome is that if you don't waste your time with infrastructure early on and just do the quests exactly, you do not need to get the marketplace early and with some waiting you can manage to get 10 fields (6wh,2wo,1c,1i) to level 2 and complete the economy quests... all in the first ~24 hours. You can get it done in 23 hours if you do the instant complete aggressively.
    [edit2: I later discovered it is 33 hours to complete the economy quest and match Wren's first 4 days of production because you need even more wheat fields... but at the end you are nearly done with level 2 fields (6wh,3wo,2c,1i)

    That is over 24 hours better than how long it took me to get that far by building the marketplace early on since using a marketplace-first build order I had to wait ~20 hours after the rat arrived to pile up the resources to finish the level 1 fields and had to get extra higher level wheat fields to pay for the extra population from early infrastructure, delaying reward bonuses and higher production totals. Not cool!

    So I reiterate, stick to the quests. Do not build the marketplace and infrastructure before the quests call for them. If you do that and wait at strategic development points (in addition to the 12 hour wait for the rat to arrive), you will only need to NPC once after you get the marketplace and that is mostly because of the big imbalance caused by reward for the marketplace quest.

    After that, you can build your fields organically, clays, wood, wheat as needed, then iron last and trade here and there. If people take your trades then you will have to NPC more, but that's the price for free resources.

    I'm kicking myself that I didn't run the math myself first since it would have shaved more than a day off of my progress.


    [EDiT: & EDiT2:
    Here's the run down of Day 1 & 1/2 (which takes you to about the start of day 5 in Wren's guide!)

    Day 1
    • Wood lvl 1
    • Wheat lvl 1
    • Quests 1-4
    • Wheat lvl 1
    • Clay lvl 1
    • Iron lvl 1
    • Quests 5-8
    • Wheat lvl 1 (x2)
    • Wood lvl 1
    • Clay lvl 1
    • Iron lvl 1
    • Wheat lvl 1 (x3)
    • ...
    • wait 12 hours for rat
    • Quest 9-10
    • Wood lvl 1
    • Quests 11
    • Wood lvl 1
    • Clay lvl 1 (x2)
    • Iron lvl 1
    • ...
    • 6 hour wait
    • Wheat lvl 2
    • Iron lvl 1
    • Quests 12-13
    • Cranny lvl 1
    • Quest 14
    • Clay lvl 2
    • Wood lvl 2
    • ...
    • 6 hour wait
    • Wheat lvl 2
    • Iron lvl 2
    • Quest 15-16
    • Wheat lvl 2

    Day 2
    • ...
    • 9 hour wait
    • Wheat lvl 2
    • MB 2-3
    • Quest 17-18
    • Gran lvl 1
    • Quest 19 (E)
    • Ware lvl 1
    • Quest 20 (E)
    • Market lvl 1
    • Quest 21 (E)
    • Wheat lvl 2
    • NPC
    • Wheat lvl 2 (x2)
    • Wood lvl 2 (x2)
    • Clay lvl 2
    • 33 hour mark where production= 96 hours of Wren's build order
    • ...
    • 8 hour wait
    • Clay lvl 2
    • Clay lvl 2
    • NPC
    • Wood lvl 2
    • ...
    • 9 hour wait

    Day 3
    • Wheat lvl 3
    • Iron lvl 2
    • ...
    • 9 hour wait
    • Iron lvl 2
    • Iron lvl 2
    • Quest 22
    • Quest 23-referral gold bonus trivia (not embassy)
    • 13 hours of BP left... save up for dem crannies with full level 2 fields.
    • Cranny lvl 2-7
    • NPC
    • Cranny 8 (1200 gaul protection,960 vs. teuts; 600 non-gaul protection, 480 vs teuts)
    • [exit BP at 3 days... work on raising cranny up a bit more for comfort levels and then go back to level 3 fields]



    Whew. There is aggressive instant building there mostly because I was lazy in calculating time, but doing this build order shaves a lot of time off of your start. Not using instant complete on fields would add maybe a few hours to your overall progress such that you might come out of BP with a lower level cranny. After that, it is pretty much simple organic growing. Gold % bonuses are used for both guides and I recommend them strongly.

    Compare your Erik guide end of 72 hours populaton & production: 57 pop, 45/45/45/18 production.
    Wren's guide has end of day 96 hour population & production: 54 pop 45/30/30/13 production.

    I'm actually not convinced Wren's build order even works at all since it neglects that you need more wheat fields sooner to pay for the extra infrastructure. When the level 1 fields are finished it has a population of 41 yet only a wheat production of 38... oops. It's worse than that even since the pop limit is actually based off of non-gold production (which is why it insists you need more wheat fields early on even when you can afford to go without them with the gold% bonus... consider it a failsafe against being -wheat with no troops if your gold% wheat ran out) which is a mere 30(!). The problem crops up (ha ha) again at the level 2 fields and level 3 fields. By level 4 there is enough leeway that you are okay.

    This isn't an attack on Wren by any means. Just a critique of the sim guide since the more I look at it, the less it works.

    [edit2:]
    Hrmmm... I think my guide suffered the same problem as Wren's. I am checking the numbers against non-gold bonus wheat, and I think it is impossible to get all level 1 fields and MB 1 without getting 1 level 2 wheat field. That messes everything up in my build order and requires more waiting here and there such that mine does not finish the economy quests in 24 hours as I earlier predicted (instead it is 33 hours). =-(

    Still, at 72 hours you come out of BP with far more production, and far more cranny protection.


    [EDiT 3: pxchoudhury set me to rights about how wheat limitation works... gold bonus apparently is enough to authorize extra building capacity, so that will help... I'll rewrite it again for more optimization. Might be able to eke out a bit more oomph since a lot of the waiting is to get wheat fields in order to meet other goals.]
    Last edited by Erik; 02-28-2010 at 05:18 PM.

  34. #34

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    Day 34 of SimWatch. 16 hours left to my 3rd settler. Which will put me a week behind the suggested pace. However, I did not follow the exact build order and knowingly wasted some resources to see the non-optimized build time.

  35. #35

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    I'm gonna post another thread later with my optimized build times since I'm too lazy right now to go back and put it back where the economy quests are completed in 23-24 hours now that I've been educated some on the wheat/pop limit mechanic.

    As for my sim diary, I'm on day 18 and gonna be about halfway done with level 7 fields by the start of day 19, production after pop tax around 1200. Should finish dem level 7's before day 22, then either I'll start workin on infrastructure n settlers, or I may spend a couple more days and get level 8 wheat + 3 flour mill for an extra bump in production. So day 28 is my projection for when settlers will be done and on the march. If I do this again, I should be able to get settlers about a week earlier.

    Given how the croppers I want keep getting settled I'm considering doing something.... aggressively crazy with my 2nd villa, so I might need that wee bit more production to fire things up.

  36. #36

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    Had a setback. Some local guy wanted to try out his cats and zeroed my Residence. So I will have to Level it back up to get third settler. My normal game style, I would have taken him out weeks ago and be on my third village by now. I am not a big fan of the simming start up right now.

  37. #37

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    Ouches. Stop scaring me. I have been exceedingly tame in my game demeanor so far since I fear noobs with catas. I have made nice with scary players though so that will help me some.

    Definitely a good illustration of why one needs to do it efficiently and start early. My starting 2+ weeks in may prove a fatal error.

    That, and that I am gonna pick a fight over a cropper. Should be hilarious.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post

    That, and that I am gonna pick a fight over a cropper. Should be hilarious.
    Yeah, that should be fun to watch
    A simmer picking a fight...oxymoron! Like military intelligence! Or a successful government program!

    I sorta tried following the guide, but I got too impatient and started making troops. Bad idea, considering I'm Roman. Going to get stable, a few EI's for raiding, and then back on track for 2nd village. That, and I started an alliance to get that one quest done (and hey, we needed a level 3 embassy anyway for CP, right?), so my progress ain't that great, but I'm carving out a nice piece of Travian with the help of some of my alliance members, so I shouldn't have to worry about newbs testing catas on me

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  39. #39

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    Launched Settlers last night, so 36 days with the setbacks. (Had my Rally Point and Residence taken out by a noob with cats.) If you are following this method, try to shave as many days off your build time to avoid that situation. I think Erik will get it optimized down to 26-28 days. I am currently bumping up my marketplace as much as I can while the settlers travel.

    I might start an additional server to see how fast I can tech direct to cats. Should be fun for the two months I survive.

  40. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by JD70 View Post
    Launched Settlers last night, so 36 days with the setbacks. (Had my Rally Point and Residence taken out by a noob with cats.) If you are following this method, try to shave as many days off your build time to avoid that situation. I think Erik will get it optimized down to 26-28 days. I am currently bumping up my marketplace as much as I can while the settlers travel.

    I might start an additional server to see how fast I can tech direct to cats. Should be fun for the two months I survive.
    I've finished my level 7 fields and am working on residence n' stuff now. I'll have CP for the second villa in less than 5 days and should have settlers ready by then too.

    So I will be having settlers on day 26ish and getting 2nd villa on day 27. I know I could have shaved at least a couple days more off, probably more than that. The wheat choke at the start really hampered things. By following the quests almost exactly I believe you can complete the economy quest line in 24 hours and that really helps speed you along since the faster you grow, the faster you grow. Shaving a day or two off at the very start helps accelerate things.

    I'm going to do the same thing with my marketplace. I will have a >24 hour walk for my settlers so that will give me enough waiting time to power up my sad little marketplace (currently only level 4, but with 1400/hr production that is enough to get up to level 13-14 in one day from there). Since I can only push about twice daily with my markets it will be important to have them be pretty high. 14 marketplace is probably high enough for now. That will send 14k/day (in many small shipments so that I don't overrun the warehouse limits), leaving about 18k/day to diddle with back at the spawn.

    Then I will raise spawn fields and pump out legos/praets from the spawn just in case things get sketchy. With leftover resources that I cannot push fast enough to the 2nd villa I should be able to make ~40 legs/praets on days that I don't raise fields (so 5 days to get maybe 200 defenders, then do a few more fields, then 200 more defenders, etc).

    In a week I will have enough defense that no raiders will be silly enough to waste their time trying their luck with my endless crannies. In a couple weeks my 2nd villa will be up to around 2000-2500/hr production, making more on its own than from daily pushes. I'll be able to start brewing troops at the 2nd villa too and will have a significant force in a short amount of time.

    Assuming all goes well... anyway.

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