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Thread: Lvl 20 Hero's Mansion

  1. #1

    Default Lvl 20 Hero's Mansion

    If you have a level 20 Hero's Mansion and you claim the 3 oasis in your 7x7. Am I safe to assume it is okay to demolish the mansion, considering the fact that there is no immediate threat of another player claiming these same 3 oasis? As to my knowledge this is the only way you can lose an oasis by another player claiming it with their hero.

    I also know that I will be unable to attack from this village with my hero but that is an acceptable trade-off.

  2. #2
    Philosopher MokMonster's Avatar
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    As long as there are no other players who have any of those oases in their 7x7, then yes, you're safe to demolish the HM.

    Note that only a capital makes enough use of a 3rd oasis to justify the very high cost of the HM to lvl 20.
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  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by MokMonster View Post
    Note that only a capital makes enough use of a 3rd oasis to justify the very high cost of the HM to lvl 20.
    I never thought about this before. This is a good point. Other than a capital cropper it wouldn't really be worth it.
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  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by MokMonster View Post
    As long as there are no other players who have any of those oases in their 7x7, then yes, you're safe to demolish the HM.

    Note that only a capital makes enough use of a 3rd oasis to justify the very high cost of the HM to lvl 20.
    I'm actually trying to determine what I can get rid of to upgrade a capital cropper to lvl 19 fields, as those require and absurd number of warehouses. I would hate to tear down an expensive building only to have to rebuild it from the ground up again.

    Thanks for your help

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    Well what buildings to you have? If you have everything researched in the Academy, you could tear that down. And depending on whether you have an anvil or hammer, you could destroy blacksmiths or armoury. All crannies, but you shouldn't done that already...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terragon View Post
    I'm actually trying to determine what I can get rid of to upgrade a capital cropper to lvl 19 fields, as those require and absurd number of warehouses. I would hate to tear down an expensive building only to have to rebuild it from the ground up again.

    Thanks for your help
    Tear down either the Palace or the TO. I'm assuming that's the thing that you're stuck on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terragon View Post
    I'm actually trying to determine what I can get rid of to upgrade a capital cropper to lvl 19 fields, as those require and absurd number of warehouses. I would hate to tear down an expensive building only to have to rebuild it from the ground up again.

    Thanks for your help
    Hero mansion is the best to tear down if there's no threats around IMO. Trade office is nice to have if you're needing to feed troops (I assume they aren't just sitting there), and palace is a waste to leave there anyway normally. Not like your cap is going to get chiefed, so realistically it's not doing anything.

    Note though that I've been known to chief feeders next to caps before, just to take a cap oasis so they to have to build it back up.

  8. #8
    Letheso
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirveri View Post
    Tear down ... TO.
    DON'T tear down the Trade Office except as a last resort. Then you'll need the Barracks, BS, Academy and Stables all over again to get it back.

    You can still attack with your hero from the capital as long as he's there, but won't be able to once he dies or you move him.

    The list of commonly built expendable buildings for a cap cropper
    Academy
    Blacksmith
    Barracks
    Stables
    Palace
    Embassy
    HM (after you have all the oases)
    Main Building (temporarily kill the grain mill and kill this last - you'll just use gold to instabuild at that point)

    Also kill any Crannies or the Town hall if you have them (really no point in having them there ever)

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    Philosopher itsme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Letheso View Post
    DON'T tear down the Trade Office except as a last resort. Then you'll need the Barracks, BS, Academy and Stables all over again to get it back.

    You can still attack with your hero from the capital as long as he's there, but won't be able to once he dies or you move him.

    The list of commonly built expendable buildings for a cap cropper
    Academy
    Blacksmith
    Barracks
    Stables
    Palace
    Embassy
    HM (after you have all the oases)
    Main Building (temporarily kill the grain mill and kill this last - you'll just use gold to instabuild at that point)

    Also kill any Crannies or the Town hall if you have them (really no point in having them there ever)


    I'm guessing that you have never built level 19 fields in your cap.

    There are 21 building spots in a town.

    1 is only for the rally point.
    1 has to be a MB if you you want to start a granary or warehouse.
    1 is for a market(you will need this to NPC while building 19's).

    That leaves 18 spots to build.

    12 warehouses are needed to hold enough resources to build 19's.Leaving 6 for granaries, which doesn't give much time before you start maxing out on wheat.

    Basically everything has to go if you want to get level 19 wheat fields in your cap. Rebuilding certain buildings is inevitable.

    If you can get a GG/GW arty then you can get away with not tearing everything down.
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    I was talking about some of this stuff to my prospective duals for the upcoming .com server 2. (Normal speed server):

    Last time I leveled the Capital crop fields to 19 before the Artifacts came out. That was not smart, since then I had to tear down 3 Granaries and 12 Warehouses before making GG's and GW's, - it was a big waste. I had less than 2 weeks between finishing the level 19's and the Artifacts.

    So I was thinking level 18's then wait for Artifacts. A maxxed-out level 18 Capital (15c + 150% oases bonus + both resource bonus buildings + Gold bonus) produces 90,000 crop per hour - certainly enough to feed an Artifact-taking army at that point. This would mean 2 Granaries and 7 Warehouses to destroy before building the big ones.

    Level 17's would be 73,125 crop per hour. Still pretty good, and it would mean only 5 Warehouses and 1 Granary (minimum) to tear down. This would save us 548,580 in resources versus making level 18 crop fields. Might have had more Granaries anyway, but even just the 2 additional Warehouses cost 415,140.

    Perhaps it depends on how long we could have level 18's before we get the GG & GW Artifact. In less than 25 hours, the level 18 crop fields would produce as much more crop, versus level 17 fields, as the 2 additional Warehouses cost in resources.

    I'm hoping we would get our Capital leveled to 18 some months before Artifact time, so on the face of it 18's seem like the best.

    At that time, we'll still be expanding our villages and troops, and fifteen level 18 crop fields costs almost 23 million in resources over level 17's, so it's a substantial decision. If we're better served by putting those resources into troops, for example, then perhaps 17's would have to do.

    The return-on-investment or "payback" time for level 18 fields over level 17 is 56.6 days. Unless we are satisfied with our number of troops and the rate of troop production, perhaps we should hold up at level 17 fields, then, since during the 56 days/8 weeks additional troops could bring in a LOT of resources.

    The 23 million in resources would make us over 5,000 TK's in the Great Stable, for example.

    That said, I hope we can do "everything" all along, as we want to max out our cropper as soon as possible, all other things being equal. We want to get beyond the payback time early on, so we're getting true profit. Getting the cropper to a certain level and to the payback time at 4 months into the server, for example, means we get twice as much profit versus doing it at 8 months, assuming a 12 month server life.


    Doug

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    Quote Originally Posted by MokMonster View Post
    Note that only a capital makes enough use of a 3rd oasis to justify the very high cost of the HM to lvl 20.
    Wouldn't the estimated time left in the server play into this calculation? If you build those level 20 HM's early enough, they'll pay off in the long run.

    Without making any calculations, I'd guess that a 3rd wheat bonus in any 6c village would pay off quicker than a level 18 or 19 field in a 15c cap.

    Love to know for sure though, so I don't waste my time building those HM's if I'm wrong.

    SD

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Some Dude View Post
    Wouldn't the estimated time left in the server play into this calculation? If you build those level 20 HM's early enough, they'll pay off in the long run.

    Without making any calculations, I'd guess that a 3rd wheat bonus in any 6c village would pay off quicker than a level 18 or 19 field in a 15c cap.

    Love to know for sure though, so I don't waste my time building those HM's if I'm wrong.

    SD
    A 25% wheat bonus on a 6c would pay off mansion 20 in 177 days (assuming 25% gold bonus). That is about the speed of a level 21 wheat field. A 9c would take 118 days, a bit more viable, but not much. A 15c it is a bit more tempting, it would pay off in "only" 70 days. Generally I won't build past mansion 10 in any 6c village, I will do mansion 15 for croppers, and mansion 20 in capital. The main thing about building a mansion to higher levels in a 6c is that you can always just settle another 6c to take the oasis rather than go for mansion 15 in the first village.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Some Dude
    Wouldn't the estimated time left in the server play into this calculation? If you build those level 20 HM's early enough, they'll pay off in the long run.

    Without making any calculations, I'd guess that a 3rd wheat bonus in any 6c village would pay off quicker than a level 18 or 19 field in a 15c cap.

    Good questions. I like this stuff, and have looked at it before. Payback on leveling the Hero's Mansion from 15 to 20 takes a good while. This is assuming a normal speed server, level 10 fields, the Gold bonus, and that the 3rd oasis added is a +50% wheat/crop.

    Payback times:

    15c = 35.4 days

    9c = 59.1 days

    7c = 76.0 days

    6c = 88.6 days


    Of course, it's quite unlikely that a player would have a +150% 15c as a non-Capital village. I did get a 9c like that once, catapulting another player's Capital to zero population, then settling it.

    Hero's Mansion levels 16 through 20 cost 1,595,070 in resources, and while it would pay off, after some time, I think circumstances would usually make directing the resources elsewhere more prudent.

    If one is still making more villages, for example, then you could upgrade ~60 level 9 fields to 10 with the same resource expenditure, no small thing.

    Minimum payback time for a level 18 wheat field over a 17 is 56.6 days. For level 19's it's 70.9 days.

    With a +75% cropper Capital, the math would favor upgrading the HM in a level 10 village, even a 6c as you mention, versus level 19 fields in the Capital, where the payback time is a minimum of 94.5 days.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tineren
    The main thing about building a mansion to higher levels in a 6c is that you can always just settle another 6c to take the oasis rather than go for mansion 15 in the first village.
    Very good point. The additional 6c would also be giving other resource production besides wheat (and better Culture Points production than 5 extra Hero's Mansion levels), and that 1,595,070 in resources is a nice start on the extra village.


    Doug
    Last edited by PorkLoin; 04-18-2010 at 11:56 PM.

  14. #14
    Philosopher MokMonster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Some Dude View Post
    Without making any calculations, I'd guess that a 3rd wheat bonus in any 6c village would pay off quicker than a level 18 or 19 field in a 15c cap.
    Ah but the big difference is that the 3rd oasis for town_A (6c) gains you nothing vs. taking that oasis with town_B (6c) instead and it costs you an additional 1,480,830 resources (the diff btwn a lvl 15-20 HM and a 1-10 HM). With those 1.48m resources you could pretty much build most of Town_B.

    Remember that an oasis is an additive bonus, not multiplicative. So the bonus you gain by taking it as your third oasis is the same as taking it for your first.

    So which pays for itself faster:
    a HM to 20 to get an extra bonus, or a HM to 10 for the same bonus?

    A lvl 18 wheat field, assuming 50% bonus for mill/bakery and 100% bonus for oases (an average cropper) will take ~85 days to pay for itself; ~68 days if you're using gold.

    A lvl 19 wheat field, assuming 50% bonus for mill/bakery and 100% bonus for oases (an average cropper) will take ~142 days to pay for itself; ~113 days if you're using gold.

    (with a 150% oases, an 18 pays for itself in ~71 days or 56.5 (with gold) and a lvl 19 is 118 days or 94.5.)

    Of course, this doesn't take the extra cost of WH into account. And going to 18 or 19 doesn't just pay for itself in wheat. It pays for itself in having more room for troops -- so you don't have to NPC every few hours or have a constant shipping in of wheat and npc-able resources. That said, how high you take your fields should depend on your total oases %, as the cost in building them doesn't always pay for itself in wheat or in gold savings -- (the amount of NPCing and insta-build used to get the fields built vs. NPCing to feed troops).
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  15. #15

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    I currently have a 150% 15c and I have 6 lvl13 wheat fields and 9 lvl 12 wheat fields in my capital.
    When should I take the Hero Mansion to 20 and get the last 50% oases?

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by James Mattis View Post
    I currently have a 150% 15c and I have 6 lvl13 wheat fields and 9 lvl 12 wheat fields in my capital.
    When should I take the Hero Mansion to 20 and get the last 50% oases?
    It depends on how many feeders you have, but typically I start focusing heavily on HM when my fields reach lv 14.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by James Mattis View Post
    I currently have a 150% 15c and I have 6 lvl13 wheat fields and 9 lvl 12 wheat fields in my capital.
    When should I take the Hero Mansion to 20 and get the last 50% oases?
    My calculator says when you have all lvl 13's.

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