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Thread: Travian.....for beginners? (Forum)

  1. #1

    Default Travian.....for beginners? (Forum)

    Quote Originally Posted by Erazer View Post
    As for the forum ... I have to laugh out loud. Just take a look at the numbers of active posters contra active gamers. And it's even worse than that since several mass posters don't even play the game anymore. On Travian forum you either grow thick skin, or a brown nose combined with a hairy tongue, or you run away screaming at the top of your lungs - likely also leaving the game too. I do not propose a solution to that problem, but don't think forum can be used to make newcomers feel better about the game. For many it takes conditioning big time before the forum becomes a love affair.
    I resemble that statement!

    But seriously, the forum has always been a warzone. The difference is the admin and forum staff.

    Years ago when Daddy Tar was admin he declared "let there be spam" and made the trolls mods. The forums were so busy and crazy and fun. Sure we got banned 24/7 but we laughed along the way.

    When F1t@r took over he declared "let there be peace, calm, and on topic posts." Then he made all the brown nosers mods and instead of getting 1 point and 24 hours ban from the forums, you got 5 points and were gone for weeks while the threads were quietly deleted.

    The forums are dead because it is becoming like .com.

    Every forum needs trolls to survive. Every successful forum knows this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jono View Post
    Eb0l is the alpha and the omega
    The eternal pumpkin queen, and mother of gerbils
    So it was written and so it must forever be

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Evil View Post
    I resemble that statement!

    But seriously, the forum has always been a warzone. The difference is the admin and forum staff.

    Years ago when Daddy Tar was admin he declared "let there be spam" and made the trolls mods. The forums were so busy and crazy and fun. Sure we got banned 24/7 but we laughed along the way.

    When F1t@r took over he declared "let there be peace, calm, and on topic posts." Then he made all the brown nosers mods and instead of getting 1 point and 24 hours ban from the forums, you got 5 points and were gone for weeks while the threads were quietly deleted.

    The forums are dead because it is becoming like .com.

    Every forum needs trolls to survive. Every successful forum knows this.
    I like your take on things and you have(had) a point, but things evolve, and old ways becomes today's challenges.

    Lets take a couple examples. US1 last round - the trolls reigned supreme on forum to a degree there was nothing but trolling or talk about trolls left. The forum was not dead. But the trolls had scared everyone else but a couple posters away.

    US4 this round. A few trolls have effectively muted the forum by their great trolling. A connoisseur of trolling can only applaud such a great feat, but most of the wartless posters/readers disappears.

    Trolling hasn't left the server forums at all. The trolls owns the server forums. Its the regular guys/gals that have left. We are fast approaching the point where the only participants on the server forums are trolls trolling each other. That's great for us trolls, but it's obviously not great for many others, which their disappearance undeniably proves.

    The solution? I don't know. The forum can't live without some trolling, but there can also be too much trolling. There are not enough trolls in this world to keep Travian in business.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erazer View Post
    I like your take on things and you have(had) a point, but things evolve, and old ways becomes today's challenges.

    Lets take a couple examples. US1 last round - the trolls reigned supreme on forum to a degree there was nothing but trolling or talk about trolls left. The forum was not dead. But the trolls had scared everyone else but a couple posters away.

    US4 this round. A few trolls have effectively muted the forum by their great trolling. A connoisseur of trolling can only applaud such a great feat, but most of the wartless posters/readers disappears.

    Trolling hasn't left the server forums at all. The trolls owns the server forums. Its the regular guys/gals that have left. We are fast approaching the point where the only participants on the server forums are trolls trolling each other. That's great for us trolls, but it's obviously not great for many others, which their disappearance undeniably proves.

    The solution? I don't know. The forum can't live without some trolling, but there can also be too much trolling. There are not enough trolls in this world to keep Travian in business.
    The trolls haven't changed a bit. It is the way the forum is run that has changed.

    The introduction of the reputation system started the downward spiral of participants. Before, no one had more "power" than the other. Now the troll have the "power" thru the rep system. The newbies with 100 posts or less are judged as not of value and dismissed. You start with 10 rep points. If I derp a new person they are an instant beggar. It isn't a nice welcome to the forums.

    The fix for this is +1/-1 or +2/-1 and that power is universal for all users. Each person's rep power is the same and thus balancing the way it works.

    The rep system is useless without comments. It is useless without a balance in power. It is useless unless a new member can quickly grow in reputation as that is our currency here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jono View Post
    Eb0l is the alpha and the omega
    The eternal pumpkin queen, and mother of gerbils
    So it was written and so it must forever be

  4. #4

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    I thought I was done but screw it.

    So the reputation system was brought in a few months before Tar stepped down. At that time it was used as a criteria for rank. Rank determines size of PM boxes, who get a siggy, crap like that.

    Why?

    Why can't everyone just have a 1000 PM inbox. Where is the harm in that?

    Before the rep system the rank system was based purely on post count. You were either a junior member and couldn't have a sig or a senior member and you got a signature. I forget the post count requirement was but I think in the 100-200 range. The purpose of this was to prevent spam bots from promoting their "buy your ipods here" links that we all hate.

    The system worked. You either got a siggy or you didn't. It was simple. We like simple.

    Then all of a sudden we just had to have the rep system and the new ranks. Why? .UK had tried the rep system and deemed it a total failure. They got rid of it and were happier for it.

    We still have the rep system and it is a constant issue. Having to lower the populations rep points by 10% every few months, do we have comments, don't we, reporting naughty rep comments to mods. In addition with the rep comments some people use them simply as a silent attack on others because they are too afraid to post it in the thread and take responsiblity for their actions.

    Still, rep comments are needed. This is what tells us "that made me laugh" or "well thought out" or "what were you thinking". It gives value to the rep comments.

    The only way to truely fix the forum is to get rid of the rep system.

    But no, we can't do that because then how do we figure out forum rank? How will we know who deserves a big inbox and a siggy image? Ohs noes!

    The forum is dying and the game is dying. It is dying due to lack of advertising and to the rank/rep system.

    The game is fine. It was fine in version 2.something. They put out the ads, kept the forums simple- it worked. As my grandfather would tell HQ, if it ain't broke don't fix it. If it can be fixed don't throw it out. But no, we can't do that. They tweaked and tweaked the game and messed up the forums. They started losing a lot of people but didn't have the ads out to bring more in. They skipped the ads so they had the funds for development of Imperion and advertising that. They counted on the games ability to sustain itself with vets. What they failed to take into account is the high number of turn over players that make the game up.

    There are so many things wrong. And yes, part of it is ingame tactics of destroying new people. But I was destroyed my first round. I came back for more.

    Tar could probably do this rant better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jono View Post
    Eb0l is the alpha and the omega
    The eternal pumpkin queen, and mother of gerbils
    So it was written and so it must forever be

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by MokMonster View Post
    Mostly I see it as a way of kicking off the experts who are there to torment the newbs.
    I doubt many genuine newbs will truly be force-graduated from a training server in this manner.
    Not true, there will always be people at the top, where is the cut off, the fact that the server close is sufficient.


    MMM, I've got an idea, how about a limit of how much pop you can do for periods of time, what comes to mind is

    1 week period 5000 pop reduction, overall 1mth period 15000 pop reduction.

    This of course needs to be adjusted for period of the game, ie like the tier system for artifacts on T4

    This would demand people look at destroying someone more strategically.

    This of course would adversely effect me, as I like to consider myself as a "top" demolisher".


    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Evil View Post
    I resemble that statement!

    But seriously, the forum has always been a warzone. The difference is the admin and forum staff.

    Years ago when Daddy Tar was admin he declared "let there be spam" and made the trolls mods. The forums were so busy and crazy and fun. Sure we got banned 24/7 but we laughed along the way.

    When F1t@r took over he declared "let there be peace, calm, and on topic posts." Then he made all the brown nosers mods and instead of getting 1 point and 24 hours ban from the forums, you got 5 points and were gone for weeks while the threads were quietly deleted.

    The forums are dead because it is becoming like .com.

    Every forum needs trolls to survive. Every successful forum knows this.
    I've been saying this for a long time, as have others. We're a diminishing voice unfortunately.

    Another problem that has came from this, is that the "brown nosers" who stick around the forums, long after when they would of naturally pre rep. Their vocal numbers suppressing new vocal voices, not much unlike the game itself.

    What I've noticed mostly though is the lack of variety of input in conversations/threads. Sure there are more post/threads/replies than the past, but I pretty sure as a proportion of the forum membership its woefully low.

    People who in the past would of had an opinion no longer take part, i admit, I only seriously take part in a fewer threads that i would of in the past. Its no longer feel like an "equal" environment.


    My biggest issues with mods/admin is their participation in the forum, yes its a volunteer job, BUT its also a position of responsibility.

    No mod who participates and takes side whether in posts or in their own mind can cleanly say that they don't make bias judgement.


    A lack of accountability is starting to become more obvious as I've heard and experienced punishment for what I'd consider the "jaywalking" of forums. I believe Mod's have manipulated the system.


    I believe to help with accountability, posts that receive infractions should be have an "infraction" (type) and reason be placed on it.

    This helps with accountability and give guidance to people how they should be posting/behaving.


    In the past you saw multitudes of personality come and GO, at present its a trickle of what it use to be. These forum members are players. A disliked forum, does/will effect the game.


    Its interesting to note in the past someone who tries to use the grammar/spelling excuse to put someone or their post down, was always shouted down by the community. Nowadays its not, in fact its often veteran members who are doing this (making snide remarks about spelling and grammar).
    Last edited by Baghernia; 07-14-2011 at 11:31 PM.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baghernia View Post
    I've been saying this for a long time, as have others. We're a diminishing voice unfortunately.
    It comes down to Fighter liked the rep system on .UK. He didn't like it when they removed it. He talked Tar into doing it here and then he took over as admin. He likes it. He sees no reason to compromise on what he likes for the good of the community as a whole. Sorry Fighter, but it is the truth.

    It is much like the rank system. I don't understand why we need to have so many ranks. Pre 100 posts and Post 100 posts works. Why complicate things?

    Another problem that has came from this, is that the "brown nosers" who stick around the forums, long after when they would of naturally pre rep. Their vocal numbers suppressing new vocal voices, not much unlike the game itself.
    This has come about since the forum is a game now instead of a community. You earn rep, you earn rank, if you are super good you get to become a teal tag, if you kiss *** you become a mod.

    When the forum becomes a game, the community suffers as a whole. Farmhands are afraid to go into their P&D section and say "hey, my alliance doesn't suck" because the second they do they are turned red. They lose forum rank simply for voicing their opinion on the server. That takes their power. That gives other members the power to say "I don't like you disagreeing with me so you don't get to have a signature image." While it isn't a big deal, still it is stupid.

    What I've noticed mostly though is the lack of variety of input in conversations/threads. Sure there are more post/threads/replies than the past, but I pretty sure as a proportion of the forum membership its woefully low. People who in the past would of had an opinion no longer take part, i admit, I only seriously take part in a fewer threads that i would of in the past. Its no longer feel like an "equal" environment.
    Only those that don't care can go into a debate thread and argue against the masses. If I want to go into a thread about Christianity and argue if Jesus walked on water I will. I know I will get derped and flamed for it, but I don't care. To a new forum member that is a scary thing. They want to blend in gently. If their opinion is different from the masses and they get derped, they stand out. They become bright red beggars. Even the rank name is insulting. So they stay silent.

    My biggest issues with mods/admin is their participation in the forum, yes its a volunteer job, BUT its also a position of responsibility.

    No mod who participates and takes side whether in posts or in their own mind can cleanly say that they don't make bias judgement.
    You can't do that, Bag. You can't point out when a mod uses bias in their mod actions. You get bacationed for such a statement. The unfair actions of the mods must be hidden to protect them from public eye. Yet other forums have a "banned thread" where mods say "_____ got banned for spam and flaming. He comes back in 4 days." You can't even talk about the reasons for or conditions of your bacations here. If you do, that is another ban.


    A lack of accountability is starting to become more obvious as I've heard and experienced punishment for what I'd consider the "jaywalking" of forums. I believe Mod's have manipulated the system.

    I believe to help with accountability, posts that receive infractions should be have an "infraction" (type) and reason be placed on it.

    This helps with accountability and give guidance to people how they should be posting/behaving.
    ^ this


    In the past you saw multitudes of personality come and GO, at present its a trickle of what it use to be. These forum members are players. A disliked forum, does/will effect the game.

    Its interesting to note in the past someone who tries to use the grammar/spelling excuse to put someone or their post down, was always shouted down by the community. Nowadays its not, in fact its often veteran members who are doing this.
    They need to advertise again and you spelled something wrong in your post.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jono View Post
    Eb0l is the alpha and the omega
    The eternal pumpkin queen, and mother of gerbils
    So it was written and so it must forever be

  7. #7
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    It's late and I really want to reply to the posts since I last posted but I can't do it thoughtfully until I get sleep.

    This will probably be my shortest post in the thread, but I want to say you guys brought up great points and brought light to these issues in a new way. I understand what you are saying on many of these issues and it does make sense. Especially the idea of inequality on the forums and the vet members having an advantage over newer members. You've made me read things differently than I have in the past.

    Before I start rambling I'd like to say I'll reply more in detail to individual posts tomorrow. I also want to say that if anybody has constructive criticism on how my moderating style or my actions as a moderator can better help the community then please do not hesitate to send me a PM with any constructive criticism. As I have said before, I love this community which is why I started this thread and I may not be able to develop new in-game ideas to make a difference, but I do have the ability to make a difference on this forum community.

    I agree, the forums and the game go hand in hand for a successful community and Travian experience. When the game slows down, so do the forums. And when the forums aren't as hospitable to new players as they could be it negatively affects their in-game experience.

    However I just want to say that we need to keep this thread on a constructive criticism sort of tone. It has been doing great so far, but I really do not want to see this thread turning into a more flaming and accusing thread about TG, forum members, or staff as that will be less productive in achieving anything. This thread has been amazing so far, the discussion has been great and informative (for me at least) and I know I say this a lot but I can't thank all of you who have participated enough.
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  8. #8

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    Something I forgot to mention but I've noticed and believe is true.

    Yeah another anti rep post.


    Was that pre rep system, the forum was good enough that people kept coming here despite not playing anymore or slowing down, including myself. It started what we call a community, which the Rep system, was suppose to keep going.

    What the rep system did instead in my opinion, made people feel too much apart of the community, that they felt "this is their forum", a surfer "their wave" mentality, resulting in what I now consider a poisonous environment of forum vets.

    The forum, no longer evolves, has its ups and down, it just festers.

    Not a conducive environment for new players to come into.

  9. #9

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    I agree, Bag. It went from a community of lulz to a system of classes and points. The rep system and ranks led to the downfall of the forums. The lack of advertisement led to the downfall of the game.

    Sorry FC, but when you ask "how do we get this working again" you must first identify what broke.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jono View Post
    Eb0l is the alpha and the omega
    The eternal pumpkin queen, and mother of gerbils
    So it was written and so it must forever be

  10. #10
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    Thx, Ms Evil and Baghernia. Yes, the rep system is the currency, and yes, it has poisoned the forums and made them more exclusive than inclusive. Eventually bringing the forum to its knees and negatively impact how many plays the game.

    There's more to it though. The rep system didn't do it on its own. It hugely accentuated a problem I've seen on every domain I've played. Removing the rep system will not save the forums. Yes, Miss Evil, you already addressed that, and you proposed going lighter with the banhammer too, and I can see how that would do some good, but the problem will remain.

    As you said, trolling is as trolling always has been, and trolling is the way of the server forums. It's an extension of the war and mayhem on the server. Forum is decisively impacted by what happens ingame, and what has happened is, that some vets now dominate each server so extremely that newcomers, who survived long enough to start making their voice heard on the forum, first gets trolled hard and then gets taken out ingame if they were foolish enough to let their account be known, whereafter they get trolled even harder and more viciously.

    To remove the rep system will not solve that problem. The vets will still own the server and the forum. Only way to solve that problem is to make the game more balanced. Set a limit on the daily raids allowed. That way the vets cannot be so alarming more powerful than the newcomers and casual players as to leave them without a chance to shine whatever they do. And if you cannot shine in the game, then there's no fun, and many newcomers and casual players leave.

    Limit the number of daily raids and you'll have more fun for most. Set more limitations on the rep system and there'll be more fun for most.

    Edit - I'm almost always robber1, so I'm not proposing this because I can't compete. I see this problem from the angle of the of predator, who makes ppl delete and disappear, and I know it's too much and having a negative impact overall.
    Last edited by Erazer; 07-14-2011 at 08:50 AM.

  11. #11

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    Removing the rep system, is just one of many possible fixes. But its the reason for a lot of issues.

    Just like real life you can never go back to the "white picket fences" days, what you can do is try to make the way forward as smooth as possible.

    Removing the rep system is a major move towards getting it smooth as I see it, it exacerbates and creates multitudes of problems.


    I believe the rep system is strongly related to the Vet issue, I believe its removal will see more "vets" leave the forum for good over time.


    A part that can't be fixed and we just have to accept is the ups and downs of the game which directly effects the forum. This is NORMAL. If the game dies the forum dies no big deal, right now the game goes in a slump but the forum is artificially "busy".

    So what if the forum becomes a ghost town, if its in relation to the game thats fine. If the game picks up again, it will be filled by new eager members, NOT encumbered by Vets from yesteryears.

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    Okay, you mentioned the downside. If the rep system is removed several forum vets will leave the game, as for many forum vets the greenbar recognition is what keeps them going. But yes, I also agree it will make for a less encumbered forum. I have to agree with you in your analysis and conclusion. Scrap the rep system altogether.

    And limit the number of daily raids.

  13. #13

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    I gave this more thought. Bare with me because I know I am going to ramble.

    I'm going to break this down to Tar and Fighter. Yes, I will probably be banned for it but whatever. Some people can't take honest evaluation from those "beneath them."

    Days of Tar:

    There were two ranks. A junior member or a senior member.
    The mods were trolls. They were biased, they laughed, they trolled you to get you to do somethng they could ban you for.
    The currency was post count. The forum was full of spam.
    When an issue came up, the opinion of the members was asked for and valued. So when something went on, we voted. Majority ruled.

    Days of Fighter:

    There is a class system put into place that seperates forum members in a drastic way.
    Mods are the white knights, the social butterflies, and the brown nosers (for the most part- some of the newer choices have been more trolly- like Loyalist and TBS). Mods are still biased but say all rights are equal. Before they would just be like "yeah, I banned him, I don't like that ***. Now it's "well I banned him because he stepped over the line -then why didn't you ban that one too- oh well he didn't mean to step over the line plus he is super cute and reps me."
    The currency is rep. The forum is full of brown nosers and people that just lurk instead of speaking up.
    When an issue comes up, we are asked for our opinion. Then staff does what they want.

    When creating a system of rules you can't make it exclusive. Look how many times the requirement for Consul has been changed.

    You can't say "only people with blue eyes get a big inbox." People with brown eyes didn't pick their eye color.

    It boils down to dividing people by a combination of requirements and then making each set have their own set of rules. Then appointing staff from those members and making the rules not apply to the staff members. That's not all though. Each staff member has the right to interpret and change those rules as they see fit. Then there is no set way to enforce those rules. The staff member decides what the punishment is. All the while the staff are breaking the rules they are enforcing and promoting favoritism.

    It's like every day you drive to work along highway 1 where the speed limit is 55 miles per hour. People zoom past you going 80 miles an hour. You decide to go 70 because you are running late for work. A cop pulls you over and gives you a ticket and you say what about the ones going 80? You know you did something wrong but why didn't you ticket them. The cop looks at you and goes "well that red car is a guy I play poker with. The white car is an old friend from school. The Jeep is a girl I am trying to get a date with. I can't ticket them. BUT you broke the rules. The speed limit is clearly posted."

    Then as for rep each forum member is given a weapon in the form of rep. The longer you have been here the bigger your hammer. For new people their weapon is small. For a newbie to get derped for -50 on their first post.... well I wouldn't want to play here either.

    Yeah, welcome to the forums.

    The fix- remove the rep system and go back to a simple system of ranks. The mods need to be consistant with their mod actions and stop using favoritism and personal interpretation.

    As for the game, people come and go. Rally point restrictions may retain some of the player base but it isn't going to help anything without a major advertising campaign.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jono View Post
    Eb0l is the alpha and the omega
    The eternal pumpkin queen, and mother of gerbils
    So it was written and so it must forever be

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Evil View Post
    I gave this more thought. Bare with me because I know I am going to ramble.

    I'm going to break this down to Tar and Fighter. Yes, I will probably be banned for it but whatever. Some people can't take honest evaluation from those "beneath them."

    Days of Tar:

    There were two ranks. A junior member or a senior member.
    The mods were trolls. They were biased, they laughed, they trolled you to get you to do somethng they could ban you for.
    The currency was post count. The forum was full of spam.
    When an issue came up, the opinion of the members was asked for and valued. So when something went on, we voted. Majority ruled.

    Days of Fighter:

    There is a class system put into place that seperates forum members in a drastic way.
    Mods are the white knights, the social butterflies, and the brown nosers (for the most part- some of the newer choices have been more trolly- like Loyalist and TBS). Mods are still biased but say all rights are equal. Before they would just be like "yeah, I banned him, I don't like that ***. Now it's "well I banned him because he stepped over the line -then why didn't you ban that one too- oh well he didn't mean to step over the line plus he is super cute and reps me."
    The currency is rep. The forum is full of brown nosers and people that just lurk instead of speaking up.
    When an issue comes up, we are asked for our opinion. Then staff does what they want.

    When creating a system of rules you can't make it exclusive. Look how many times the requirement for Consul has been changed.

    You can't say "only people with blue eyes get a big inbox." People with brown eyes didn't pick their eye color.

    It boils down to dividing people by a combination of requirements and then making each set have their own set of rules. Then appointing staff from those members and making the rules not apply to the staff members. That's not all though. Each staff member has the right to interpret and change those rules as they see fit. Then there is no set way to enforce those rules. The staff member decides what the punishment is. All the while the staff are breaking the rules they are enforcing and promoting favoritism.

    It's like every day you drive to work along highway 1 where the speed limit is 55 miles per hour. People zoom past you going 80 miles an hour. You decide to go 70 because you are running late for work. A cop pulls you over and gives you a ticket and you say what about the ones going 80? You know you did something wrong but why didn't you ticket them. The cop looks at you and goes "well that red car is a guy I play poker with. The white car is an old friend from school. The Jeep is a girl I am trying to get a date with. I can't ticket them. BUT you broke the rules. The speed limit is clearly posted."

    Then as for rep each forum member is given a weapon in the form of rep. The longer you have been here the bigger your hammer. For new people their weapon is small. For a newbie to get derped for -50 on their first post.... well I wouldn't want to play here either.

    Yeah, welcome to the forums.

    The fix- remove the rep system and go back to a simple system of ranks. The mods need to be consistant with their mod actions and stop using favoritism and personal interpretation.

    As for the game, people come and go. Rally point restrictions may retain some of the player base but it isn't going to help anything without a major advertising campaign.
    I am sure you could talk to fighter about the blatant favoritism. Just be sure to do it on IRC because you know its really hard for him to get on the forums and keep them up to date. As he was nice enough to point out to us the other day we would know all about the t4 updates he can't be bothered to post like the other admins if we just went to IRC and hung out all day.
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  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bahara View Post
    I am sure you could talk to fighter about the blatant favoritism. Just be sure to do it on IRC because you know its really hard for him to get on the forums and keep them up to date. As he was nice enough to point out to us the other day we would know all about the t4 updates he can't be bothered to post like the other admins if we just went to IRC and hung out all day.
    I can't do that. He tends to kick and ban me from IRC.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jono View Post
    Eb0l is the alpha and the omega
    The eternal pumpkin queen, and mother of gerbils
    So it was written and so it must forever be

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bahara View Post
    I am sure you could talk to fighter about the blatant favoritism. Just be sure to do it on IRC because you know its really hard for him to get on the forums and keep them up to date. As he was nice enough to point out to us the other day we would know all about the t4 updates he can't be bothered to post like the other admins if we just went to IRC and hung out all day.
    I have no confidence there, I've spoken to Fighter over what is clearly abuse of Mod powers, though allowed. He was perfectly fine, though it felt more apathetic than anything. Too hard/too much effort basket maybe.


    I've bought into question a Mod(disliked here) from another domain being here... that was quickly deleted... suppression of the very people who makes the forum isn't very nice.


    The compensation for this "job" may not be enough/worth the effort, if so move on.
    Last edited by Baghernia; 07-14-2011 at 02:21 PM.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baghernia View Post
    I have no confidence there, I've spoken to Fighter over what is clearly abuse of Mod powers, though allowed. He was perfectly fine, though it felt more apathetic than anything. Too hard/too much effort basket maybe.


    I've bought into question a Mod(disliked here) from another domain being here... that was quickly deleted... suppression of the very people who makes the forum isn't very nice.


    The compensation for this "job" may not be enough/worth the effort, if so move on.
    Yeah my snark didn't come through very well I guess.
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  18. #18

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    @daily raid restrictions: While I can understand how that would fix the issue, it would add another issue. Why play Travian, with it's simple gameplay and mechanics, when there are more in-depth games which do the whole war thing but with limited raids? I know one of the reasons I play Travian and not some of the others out there is that I can be as active as I like to be, play when I'd like to, and not have to worry about reading "You're out of attacks for today. Please piss off until tomorrow."

    I think that fundamental of a change would be more detrimental than attempting to adjust other facets of the game. Granted, it'd be a much easier fix ... but easier isn't always better.

    @Forum/Rep system. On the Imperion.us forums (back before they shut it down), I argued against the rep system there. I felt, and still feel, that they're an overall detriment to the forums. They make people really think about whether they'd like to post something because of established community member backlash and convincing people that the rep system really doesn't matter is hard to do.

    That being said, I don't think that whatever "fix" you guys are looking for in the forums will happen by the removal of the system. It's done a lot of it's damage already.

    I don't much post anymore because, frankly, I couldn't be bothered to write up another post which took me an hour or two to write/find references for. I realized, after spending about 2 hours making sure my "facts" were right in one of the T&P Christianity threads, that it wasn't fun and that this was a game forum, meaning it should probably have something to do with fun. I read through some of the threads now and it's the same people going back and forth on each other, whether it's the server forums or the T&P.

    The server "politics" forums are a waste of space, a place for someone to either pat themselves and their friends on the back or try and humiliate someone else for not being as good as them. Once in a while there's a good analysis that comes in for people to have an idea of what other people think of alliances but mostly it just seems to be flamefest circle-jerk which really doesn't need to be there...where those same people doing the damage are always posting "WTF, nothing going on in here???" like they're just totally surprised that people haven't been posting anything up. Lame.

    How to revitalize it? I have no real idea. Frankly, if it were a toilet, I'd flush and then go buy a new toilet, hoping the next one wouldn't stink so much. Obviously that's not going to happen but that's how I feel about it at this point. Different moderation protocols is about the only way I can see that it'll change.

    I do think that this idea of what perks you get for the forum being based on how much people like you is pretty silly, though. See above comments about the politics forums and them being a circle jerk. That's what the rep perks really are, either spend hours working on too-thorough posts that even the hardiest opponent can grudgingly admire OR go with the flow and get rep like candy at a parade. Both solutions are not solutions at all, just adding more to the problem of a dying forum. Anyone know a good necromancer?
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  19. #19

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    for Legionaire.

    Since they shut down Imperion.us I wonder if Murdok would be available to be admin here. We need the Murdoks of Travian running the game. We need the Lurks to run the forum. The Fighters and Bellas are the ones causing the downfall.

    Then again we could just get fighter to emoquit. He promised me a while ago that when he does his emoquit rage he is going to appoint me admin as his last act just to **** everyone over. Nichts made a similar promise with the forums when he was forum admin. I'm still waiting.
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  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Evil View Post
    Since they shut down Imperion.us I wonder if Murdok would be available to be admin here. We need the Murdoks of Travian running the game. We need the Lurks to run the forum. The Fighters and Bellas are the ones causing the downfall.
    I don't really agree with that sentiment, to be honest. And not because I'm worried about a bacation (frankly, the only thing I'd miss from these forums is the Guides section.) I think you're being overly harsh due to your past and recent run ins with various mods on the forums and a want for the "good ol' days" that you see them when Lurk, Narodnik and others were the moderators here. Those day are gone and while I think there needs to be changes, pointing fingers and making people defensive isn't going to help get those changes made. People are more likely to circle the wagons to face aggression against their own than they are to adjust their way of thinking when someone says "You suck" to their face in public like this.

    I just think that the protocols being used need to be adjusted. Obviously something changed in the last couple of years which has made the forum itself go from being a vibrant, fairly active place to what we have today. To me, that means some change in either a) the people here or b) the moderation protocols. And, IMO, adjustments in moderation protocols will tend to fix the people that are here, unless those really haven't changed?

    It could just be that the game itself is actually dying out and that there really is just that much less forum traffic that what we're noticing is the normal order of things. Maybe.
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  21. #21

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    The forum dying is of course partically because of the game dying. But I believe fighter is a large part of the problem as well. He really hasn't' been doing a good job even since lurk left. Maybe lurk was always just doing the balk of the work I really don't know there. But I do know that announcements are not well announced. The staff seem to be less available and more high and mighty I am above you (as a general rule) then staff from previous years. The s7 support staff clearly can't play travian there numerous lol threads about stupid and just wrong things he/they has/have said. Clearly **** is just being made up by the people that staff that server and no one seems inclined to do anything about it. If the other servers are half as bad its no wonder things are going downhill. You can't blame fighter for a lot of it but he does bare a great deal of responsibility.
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  22. #22
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    This thread will be used for discussion about the forums and how they may be improved to be more friendly for new players to come. As the forums do provide a place with a lot of knowledge and an outlet for new players to make friends that can help them in-game. They are also a good place to kill time between attacks and long build times.

    I do agree that it seems the forums have grown into a place where, like in the game, the vets rule and it is difficult for the new players to get a chance to experience the forums. There is way too much trolling in parts of the forums which often chases off new members, or it intimidates others so they do not want to post. Both bring issues to allowing the community to grow, change, and expand and prevent discussions and conversations between members that may not see eye to eye.

    However, like Baghernia pointed out, the forums and game are very closely related. When the game has more players and is more active, the forum has more members and is more active. When the game has less players and is less active, the forum has less members and is less active. That fluctuation is expected, but something can still be done to make the forums more welcoming despite how many players there are in-game.

    I agree the reputation system seems to have been an issue in furthering the gap between forum vets and new players. It gives a new way to troll, a new way to try to scare people off from posting if they don't have the same views as you, and gives the forum vets and long time members a way to have power over the new ones that come in. While I understand how it can be fun and entertaining, it does seem to have an impact that inhibits the new players from becoming a part of our community.

    eBol you have a good point, more equality on the forums for all members, regardless of post count, reputation, join date, etc. would cut down on the forum vet control and give new players more of a chance to continue playing. I also think there may be ways for forum staff to do more to encourage new members to continue using the forums and protect them from harsh trolling. It's not good for new members to get trolled and derepped for asking a question that may have been asked before, spelling something wrong or making a grammar mistake, or speaking out in support of an alliance that may not be the best alliance on the server.

    Our forum has become more reputation centered than content centered. I am somewhat obsessed with reputation myself, I often check my reputation to see if I've gotten more rep or gotten some taken away. I'm sure I'm not the only one who does that either. As much as I love seeing whether someone liked (or disliked) what I've said, it's become a bit too much.

    As far as forum staff and moderation techniques it's difficult for me to completely see things from the point of view of the members, just as I'm sure it's difficult for members to see things from the point of view of the forum staff. As a moderator I want my actions to positively impact the community and I'd love to for the community to tell me what I could be doing better to make sure these forums are a welcoming place.

    For those who say the moderating style has changed over the years, I don't disagree with you there. We have new forum mods who may not mod exactly like those before them. Also, as a mod, I know that the members I'm modding reflect how I mod. So as the crowd of forum members change moderation styles may change a bit with them. Personally, I am a fairly relaxed mod and I believe in giving people chances and using verbal warnings. I also try to be as unbiased as possible, although I'm sure sometimes I fail at that or my actions as a moderator are interpreted different by the members.

    However, I see how different moderating styles lead to confusion as something someone may get away with under one mod, they get banned for for another. I see the need for all mods to enforce everything exactly the same and give the same punishment across the forums. At the same time, we are only humans so each of us may interpret things slightly differently. If there is a reliable way to get all of the forum mods on the same page to give the same punishments and interpret the forum rules and content of posts as similarly as possible that would be great.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baghernia View Post
    Just like real life you can never go back to the "white picket fences" days, what you can do is try to make the way forward as smooth as possible.
    I like this whole post, but this particular statement is my favorite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Evil View Post
    It boils down to dividing people by a combination of requirements and then making each set have their own set of rules. Then appointing staff from those members and making the rules not apply to the staff members. That's not all though. Each staff member has the right to interpret and change those rules as they see fit. Then there is no set way to enforce those rules. The staff member decides what the punishment is. All the while the staff are breaking the rules they are enforcing and promoting favoritism.
    I don't think this statement is completely accurate for how things are going on here. But, it could just be because we aren't looking at things the same way. I'm sure it's different for a member to look at the forum staff than it is for the forum staff to look at the forum staff. And I really hope the members don't see the forum staff this way, and if they do I really hope that can be fixed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Legionnaire67 View Post
    The server "politics" forums are a waste of space, a place for someone to either pat themselves and their friends on the back or try and humiliate someone else for not being as good as them. Once in a while there's a good analysis that comes in for people to have an idea of what other people think of alliances but mostly it just seems to be flamefest circle-jerk which really doesn't need to be there...where those same people doing the damage are always posting "WTF, nothing going on in here???" like they're just totally surprised that people haven't been posting anything up. Lame.
    I don't completely agree that the P&D sections are a waste of space. When they are used more often, especially by a range of members from new members to veterans, they provide a good place to meet people from the server that you wouldn't have met before. They also do provide the helpful analysis or other discussion at times or discussion on game strategy, plans, and ideas. When they are used to their full potential they can make a community for the server you play on. Yes, there will always be a bit of trolling and the "my alliance is better than yours so shut up" posts, but I think the P&D sections offer more benefits than downfalls. Right now though, I do see where you are coming from with the excessive trolling and chest thumping by a small group of people. I believe, if the right changes were made to accommodate new players in the game and the forums you would see the P&D sections become more beneficial again.

    In the end I'd like to say that what I've said here are my own opinions and are not the opinions of TG or the Travian.us staff. I'm interested in seeing where I can improve and seeing where you all think the game and forums can improve to bring in more players. Of course there will be constructive criticism in conversations like this, but I'd also like to ask people not to become accusing or flame people as that will only cause a standstill in discussions and idea sharing. So far the discussion has been extremely beneficial to me though.
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  23. #23

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    Our forum has become more reputation centered than content centered. I am somewhat obsessed with reputation myself, I often check my reputation to see if I've gotten more rep or gotten some taken away. I'm sure I'm not the only one who does that either. As much as I love seeing whether someone liked (or disliked) what I've said, it's become a bit too much.
    Vbulletin has a "thank" option that could work. Maybe Joshyyyyyyy could look into it. I have it on other forums and I like it so much better than the rep system. It has no value or power other than a "kudos on the good post." There is no limit to how many thanks you can give and there isn't a "no thanks" option. It is a way to offer praise on a post well done. There are no comments with it- just the name of who thanked it.

    If you were to pull the rep system, the thanks would be a great replacement and a simple adjustment for most long standing members.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jono View Post
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  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Evil View Post
    Vbulletin has a "thank" option that could work. Maybe Joshyyyyyyy could look into it. I have it on other forums and I like it so much better than the rep system. It has no value or power other than a "kudos on the good post." There is no limit to how many thanks you can give and there isn't a "no thanks" option. It is a way to offer praise on a post well done. There are no comments with it- just the name of who thanked it.

    If you were to pull the rep system, the thanks would be a great replacement and a simple adjustment for most long standing members.
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  25. #25


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    I think the "thank" option for the forums would serve a better purpose than the rep system. Just my two cents.

    Quote Originally Posted by F.C. View Post
    I don't completely agree that the P&D sections are a waste of space.
    I don't know if this is what the original suggestion meant or not... but I don't think they're a waste of "forum space", as the P&D sections serve great purpose in the play of a server (sharing information and misinformation alike). I *do*, however, think they waste space on the main forum page. They make the forum page look overwhelming to a new user, imo. If the default could be to have all P&D sections minimized, with each only having a small header showing which server it's for and a button to maximize it, that would be helpful. Another option is to have all P&D forums "hidden" in a sub-forum, so only one "Politics and Diplomacy Forums" link needs to be on the main page, which would open up the sub-forum with all the separate servers listed inside.

  26. #26
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    If the rep system needed to change, there wouldn't have been such a huge outcry to return it back to the way it was when the comments were taken away.

    What we have here is a small amount of people in their own circle jerk of a thread here (something they accuse the forums of being but exemplify it themselves) trashing the rep system, not because it would bring more posters (for they didn't make this argument earlier), but only because the 'attraction of more posters argument' can be manipulated into their anti-reputation system view.

    A sample of problems with these 3 or 4 poster's arguments which pretend to speak for the vast majority:

    1. Players with more rep post better than players with less rep. You know when you really get neg rep? When you post something stupid. I don't neg rep anyone who has well thought out posts which articulate their opinions, however wrong they may be. Most neg reps go towards emoraging whiners, one of which I see whining over and over in this thread.

    2. The game is dying which makes the forums die. Increase playership, increase forum participation. This isn't a chicken or egg debate; we know that the game came before the forum or if you want to put it another way, if the game were to shut down tomorrow, this place would turn into about 20-30 posters arguing the validity of their belly-buttons.

    3. Having trolls for mods that goad players into posting things so they can ban them is not a good idea. Further, it is blatantly detrimental and contradictory to your argument that there is too much trolling on these forums. "There's too much trolling, we should take away troll's powers." "How?" "Make them mods so they can ban you now after they troll you!" "Duh, otay!"

    So no, bad idea, bad. The mods are doing a fine job as proved by the amount with which you get banned. You cannot go back to a time when you were happy with certain people just because you have a problem with others now. You learn to adjust and you move on, go home, or whine uselessly about it everywhere showing that sometimes old dogs just can't learn new tricks. These aren't your representatives, they are your moderators. If you aren't agreeing with everything they do, they're probably doing their jobs right.

    4. A thank you system is annoying and is in no way shape or form a viable replacement for the positive and negative reinforcement factors that the rep system employs. The bottom line is that the rep system works. I've seen many bad posters turn into good ones. Most of us started out going red and then went green. It's a learning curve. Learn to deal with it.

    EDIT: As an afterthought and a social experiment, it will be interesting to see how much neg rep I get from these 3 or 4 posters I spoke of. How quickly will they turn to the system the abhor to show their disdain for my post?
    Last edited by Baron D'Holbach; 07-14-2011 at 11:15 PM.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    If the rep system needed to change, there wouldn't have been such a huge outcry to return it back to the way it was when the comments were taken away.

    What we have here is a small amount of people in their own circle jerk of a thread here (something they accuse the forums of being but exemplify it themselves) trashing the rep system, not because it would bring more posters (for they didn't make this argument earlier), but only because the 'attraction of more posters argument' can be manipulated into their anti-reputation system view.

    A sample of problems with these 3 or 4 poster's arguments which pretend to speak for the vast majority:

    1. Players with more rep post better than players with less rep. You know when you really get neg rep? When you post something stupid. I don't neg rep anyone who has well thought out posts which articulate their opinions, however wrong they may be. Most neg reps go towards emoraging whiners, one of which I see whining over and over in this thread.

    2. The game is dying which makes the forums die. Increase playership, increase forum participation. This isn't a chicken or egg debate; we know that the game came before the forum or if you want to put it another way, if the game were to shut down tomorrow, this place would turn into about 20-30 posters arguing the validity of their belly-buttons.

    3. Having trolls for mods that goad players into posting things so they can ban them is not a good idea. Further, it is blatantly detrimental and contradictory to your argument that there is too much trolling on these forums. "There's too much trolling, we should take away troll's powers." "How?" "Make them mods so they can ban you now after they troll you!" "Duh, otay!"

    So no, bad idea, bad. The mods are doing a fine job as proved by the amount with which you get banned. You cannot go back to a time when you were happy with certain people just because you have a problem with others now. You learn to adjust and you move on, go home, or whine uselessly about it everywhere showing that sometimes old dogs just can't learn new tricks. These aren't your representatives, they are your moderators. If you aren't agreeing with everything they do, they're probably doing their jobs right.

    4. A thank you system is annoying and is in no way shape or form a viable replacement for the positive and negative reinforcement factors that the rep system employs. The bottom line is that the rep system works. I've seen many bad posters turn into good ones. Most of us started out going red and then went green. It's a learning curve. Learn to deal with it.

    EDIT: As an afterthought and a social experiment, it will be interesting to see how much neg rep I get from these 3 or 4 posters I spoke of. How quickly will they turn to the system the abhor to show their disdain for my post?
    I never thought I was ever going to type this: I agree with Baron.

  28. #28

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    I'm only replying to the portions of the post that I actually have an opinion on. The rest I have little to say on the matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    What we have here is a small amount of people in their own circle jerk of a thread here (something they accuse the forums of being but exemplify it themselves) trashing the rep system, not because it would bring more posters (for they didn't make this argument earlier), but only because the 'attraction of more posters argument' can be manipulated into their anti-reputation system view.
    While I cannot speak for Evil or any of the other posters, I can speak for myself (whom I assume you're calling out, since you're utilizing my own little catch phrase of "circle jerk" which I've utilized in this thread.)

    What you have here is a thread where we were specifically asked for our opinions and it's been given. It's that simple, Baron. You can twist it however you'd like (anyone who's visited any thread you've posted in on the T&P forum knows you're good at attempting to twist everything to suit your argument, regardless of intent) but the intent is not to bash the reputation system as much as point out what I see the issues with the forum being.

    Incessant trolling, such as what you do in T&P constantly, are more of a problem than the reputation will ever be.

    A sample of problems with these 3 or 4 poster's arguments which pretend to speak for the vast majority
    Emphasis mine.

    That is not the case at all. I wouldn't dream of speaking for the majority on these forums because, frankly, the majority are very much a group of people I'd like little association with. Hence why I rarely post on these forums anymore.

    FC asked, which brought me out of lurkerville. It really is that simple, not some convoluted attempt to pretend like I speak for everyone as I'm quite sure I do not. Much the same as on the Imperion forums when the rep was put in anyway.

    1. Players with more rep post better than players with less rep. You know when you really get neg rep? When you post something stupid. I don't neg rep anyone who has well thought out posts which articulate their opinions, however wrong they may be. Most neg reps go towards emoraging whiners, one of which I see whining over and over in this thread.
    It almost sounds as if you're speaking for everyone in this point, Baron.

    Regardless, I wish that were the case for everyone. If it were, we wouldn't be having this conversation (at least I wouldn't be involved in it). It may be the case for you and your posting habits but is by far not the case that I've experienced on these forums. Say something witty, you get rep. Jerk off the proverbial majority, you get rep. Berate someone who's not one of the "top posters," you get rep. Argue it out with the top posters, you tend to lose rep.

    2. The game is dying which makes the forums die. Increase playership, increase forum participation. This isn't a chicken or egg debate; we know that the game came before the forum or if you want to put it another way, if the game were to shut down tomorrow, this place would turn into about 20-30 posters arguing the validity of their belly-buttons.
    I agree. However, retaining those posters isn't as likely to happen when the forums are as hostile as they are. Hence why, in T&P for example, you'll have the same 10 people posting over .. and over .. and over in threads. Someone new pops in their head, says something against one of the "Top 10" and poof, they're flamed to high heaven for a variety of reasons, which are not always because they say something stupid. Do most of those posters return? Not that I've seen.

    3. Having trolls for mods that goad players into posting things so they can ban them is not a good idea. Further, it is blatantly detrimental and contradictory to your argument that there is too much trolling on these forums. "There's too much trolling, we should take away troll's powers." "How?" "Make them mods so they can ban you now after they troll you!" "Duh, otay!"
    Point. I don't agree with Evil on that either.

    EDIT: As an afterthought and a social experiment, it will be interesting to see how much neg rep I get from these 3 or 4 posters I spoke of. How quickly will they turn to the system the abhor to show their disdain for my post?
    I rarely give rep either way unless it's the same point being beaten to death or someone's being an outright **** constantly so it's unlikely that this poster will put any sort of reputation, either direction, in your Settings tab anytime soon.
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  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by trollface
    Having trolls for mods that goad players into posting things so they can ban them is not a good idea. Further, it is blatantly detrimental and contradictory to your argument that there is too much trolling on these forums. "There's too much trolling, we should take away troll's powers." "How?" "Make them mods so they can ban you now after they troll you!" "Duh, otay!"
    Quote Originally Posted by legion
    Point. I don't agree with Evil on that either.
    My point was they were honest about it.

    There was favoritism and bias back then as well- I get that, but with trolls as mods the favoritism was different. It use to be who banned Fuzzy first and you lost your banhammer cherry on Elf. It was a game. It was favoritism but it was honest and it was reversed. The favoritism went to the bacationed one. I got many preemptive bans just because I was probably going to do something.

    Now the favorite ones get away with everything and the ones that challenge them get banned.

    So with trolls as mods, the mods picked their favorite people TO BAN.
    With the current mods, the mods pick their favorite people TO PROTECT.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jono View Post
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    If the rep system needed to change, there wouldn't have been such a huge outcry to return it back to the way it was when the comments were taken away.
    There is a difference between a change and removing it entirely. The outcry was over changing the rep system and removing the comments which people claimed to find more important than a generic plus or minus rep itself. Which I understand. Sure, people would complain about it being removed just as people complained about giving in and adding rep comments again. People will always complain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    What we have here is a small amount of people in their own circle jerk of a thread here (something they accuse the forums of being but exemplify it themselves) trashing the rep system, not because it would bring more posters (for they didn't make this argument earlier), but only because the 'attraction of more posters argument' can be manipulated into their anti-reputation system view.
    True, there may not be a wide variety of people posting in this thread. But this thread (and the other one) is far from a "circle jerk". Anybody is allowed to post, or not post, in this thread at their own free will and offer their own ideas. Whether they agree with ideas posted, or disagree, or have completely new ideas doesn't matter, they are free to post. That is the whole point of this thread and the other, for as many people as possible to maturely discuss possible ways Travian could be more welcoming to beginners.

    I can also honestly tell you that I never considered removing the reputation system until I read valid points made in this thread. If you have more valid points about why the reputation system helps new players in the forums or have ideas to make this forum more welcoming to new posters then please post them. I want to see what you have to say as I am genuinely interested in all ideas.

    The point that the reputation system creates a hierarchy of posters is a valid one. The forums really should be a place where new members and old ones are on an equal level from the start.


    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    1. Players with more rep post better than players with less rep. You know when you really get neg rep? When you post something stupid. I don't neg rep anyone who has well thought out posts which articulate their opinions, however wrong they may be. Most neg reps go towards emoraging whiners, one of which I see whining over and over in this thread.
    It's hard to accurately make that argument and apply it to the reputation system as the reason why these players post better. Being stupid may be one of the largest reasons for getting neg rep, but that reason is so subjective. One poster may think another is being stupid because they didn't spell a word right, or messed up grammar. Another may think a poster is being stupid because they asked a question that was asked before. Another may think a poster is being stupid because they are supporting an alliance that isn't in the top 20 or top 10. You may be more restrictive with how you neg rep people which is great, but there are still so many members on this forum that don't use the system the same way you do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    2. The game is dying which makes the forums die. Increase playership, increase forum participation. This isn't a chicken or egg debate; we know that the game came before the forum or if you want to put it another way, if the game were to shut down tomorrow, this place would turn into about 20-30 posters arguing the validity of their belly-buttons.
    This is a great point, and one that has been brought up before in this thread. I don't think anybody is denying that game activity also affects forum activity. But that doesn't mean we can do things on the forums to be more accommodating to the new players who are playing today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    3. Having trolls for mods that goad players into posting things so they can ban them is not a good idea. Further, it is blatantly detrimental and contradictory to your argument that there is too much trolling on these forums. "There's too much trolling, we should take away troll's powers." "How?" "Make them mods so they can ban you now after they troll you!" "Duh, otay!"
    I agree with you, mods shouldn't be trolls. But trolling is an issue on the forum that does cross the line at times causing new players to not want to participate in the forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    4. A thank you system is annoying and is in no way shape or form a viable replacement for the positive and negative reinforcement factors that the rep system employs. The bottom line is that the rep system works. I've seen many bad posters turn into good ones. Most of us started out going red and then went green. It's a learning curve. Learn to deal with it.
    Again "bad posters" and "good ones" is a very subjective term. Sure maybe there were posters whose posting style was not liked and they got neg repped so they learned how to fit in with the status quo, but fitting in with the status quo does not allow the community to flow and evolve. That means that every new poster has to fit the image of what a good poster should be and stick to it, and the image of the good poster is most likely one that is exactly like the group of veteran posters at that time. That means, somebody who doesn't have the same personality or the ability to bend into the status quo won't have a chance on these forums. Additionally, it's hard to calculate how many forum members that lurk here before posting were dissuaded from ever posting due to the hierarchy system and the trolling that they may have seen.

    I understand how a new forum member may be intimidated by the forum hierarchy with the reputation system. A new forum member shouldn't have to learn how to play the game and learn how to play the forums. The forums should be a welcoming tool for new players to have somewhere in Travian to come in as relatively equal to other players and not have to catch up in population or in reputation to feel welcomed or a part of the community.

    If there was a way to turn off reputation points and allow people to give plus rep or negative rep with the comments, but no points then that may be a good way to utilize the great feedback system the reputation system gives without creating such a strong forum hierarchy. In this way somebody won't have to join the forum and feel like they have to conform or hold back opinions or ideas to be able to get the same perks the forum members with more reputation have.

    Edit: A good way to maybe find out what new players and new comers to our forums may actually think (without our bias as long time forum members) is to actually ask them. Or hopefully have one of them see this thread and speak up. I guess I should emphasize that I really want new Travian players to participate in these discussion as well, if there are any lurking.
    Last edited by F.C.; 07-15-2011 at 12:09 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legionnaire67 View Post
    While I cannot speak for Evil or any of the other posters, I can speak for myself (whom I assume you're calling out, since you're utilizing my own little catch phrase of "circle jerk" which I've utilized in this thread.)
    Actually, I didn't recall who said it, just that it was thrown around. After a while, you guys started sounding alike, page after page with the same complaints even though no one was debating them. That's why I've stepped in here. So no, it wasn't a specific call to you as I didn't hear anything strong enough in your voice to pinpoint with accuracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Legionnaire67 View Post
    What you have here is a thread where we were specifically asked for our opinions and it's been given. It's that simple, Baron. You can twist it however you'd like (anyone who's visited any thread you've posted in on the T&P forum knows you're good at attempting to twist everything to suit your argument, regardless of intent) but the intent is not to bash the reputation system as much as point out what I see the issues with the forum being.
    Yes, and having been asked the same, here I am giving my opinions and calling out some of the hypocrisy and problems with the posts I've seen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Legionnaire67 View Post
    Incessant trolling, such as what you do in T&P constantly, are more of a problem than the reputation will ever be.
    I'd like to think my trolling transcends the forums and is not limited to the Talk and Play section.

    Quote Originally Posted by Legionnaire67 View Post
    That is not the case at all. I wouldn't dream of speaking for the majority on these forums because, frankly, the majority are very much a group of people I'd like little association with. Hence why I rarely post on these forums anymore.
    I don't get why you are here then, even if you feel compelled to give your opinion because FC asked. It seems that the forums don't matter to you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Legionnaire67 View Post
    It almost sounds as if you're speaking for everyone in this point, Baron.
    Nice try, but no.

    Quote Originally Posted by Legionnaire67 View Post
    Regardless, I wish that were the case for everyone. If it were, we wouldn't be having this conversation (at least I wouldn't be involved in it). It may be the case for you and your posting habits but is by far not the case that I've experienced on these forums. Say something witty, you get rep. Jerk off the proverbial majority, you get rep. Berate someone who's not one of the "top posters," you get rep. Argue it out with the top posters, you tend to lose rep.
    I'd like to point out that you've said, "...you get rep," without mentioning whether it is positive or negative until the last example. Even if this wasn't your intent, the rest of your post seems so carefully worded that I'm going to have to look at this as a slip. You get rep. Yes. That's the point of the rep system. Say something witty and get rep? It reflects what the majority wants to see more or less of.

    So while neither you nor I speak for the majority, your rep does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Legionnaire67 View Post
    I agree. However, retaining those posters isn't as likely to happen when the forums are as hostile as they are. Hence why, in T&P for example, you'll have the same 10 people posting over .. and over .. and over in threads. Someone new pops in their head, says something against one of the "Top 10" and poof, they're flamed to high heaven for a variety of reasons, which are not always because they say something stupid. Do most of those posters return? Not that I've seen.
    Here in this thread, we have the same people posting over and over and I pop my head in and...don't worry. I'll be back no matter what.

    Quote Originally Posted by Legionnaire67 View Post
    Point. I don't agree with Evil on that either.
    It's nice to find common ground sometimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Legionnaire67 View Post
    I rarely give rep either way unless it's the same point being beaten to death or someone's being an outright **** constantly so it's unlikely that this poster will put any sort of reputation, either direction, in your Settings tab anytime soon.
    I'm not an outright **** constantly? Thanks, I guess.

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    Meh Baron is just a dirty troll, even trying to troll a constructive thread.

    Claiming a minority is trying to represent the majority, then doing the same thing but alone... is a bit of an oxymoron.

    Since you haven't been paying attention, the fact there are so few people having an input is representative of the problem. People don't want to get involved.

    Your claim you will be derep for having an opposing opinion, backs our claim.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    I don't get why you are here then, even if you feel compelled to give your opinion because FC asked. It seems that the forums don't matter to you.
    A questions was asked to ALL forum members and he responded. This is the attitude that is the problem. That "they only have 20 posts they don't matter," or "they are a beggar, ignore them." No, everyone has a voice. Legion is expressing his. If this issue didn't matter to him he wouldn't post. He is one of those members who doesn't like to participate because they get insulted.

    So while neither you nor I speak for the majority, your rep does.
    I was once at the top of the rep chain for a long while. That didn't mean I spoke for the majority. JD is currently king. Does that mean we should all get drunk and post random things?

    No. It means the top people are liked by others. They do circle jerk. When I sign +reps I get +reps back. I don't sign them often anymore. I see no reason unless I want them to know specifically "hey I said this lulz" I either leave it blank or just tell them they were funny. My urp encourages a certain type of behavior. It tells them when they flame someone I laugh and will reward them with the forum currency. Problem is I don't speak for everyone, I just have a higher rephammer than a guy that joined 3 months ago. What makes my opinion more important than the new guys? Nothing does because everyone has a voice.

    Here in this thread, we have the same people posting over and over and I pop my head in and...don't worry. I'll be back no matter what.
    This thread is open to everyone. You are the only one in here saying "these ideas are wrong" which is your right. You must consider though that everyone else is saying "this is what I think" and you come off as saying "you guys are wrong." There is a big difference.
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    Well, F.C., it's pretty clear where you stand on this and that you've stopped just hosting the discussion and started opining on it. Be careful or Ms. Evil might start yelling, "Mod Bias!" Oh wait, she won't do that. You agree with her. And the smackings of hypocrisy continue...

    Quote Originally Posted by F.C. View Post
    There is a difference between a change and removing it entirely. The outcry was over changing the rep system and removing the comments which people claimed to find more important than a generic plus or minus rep itself. Which I understand. Sure, people would complain about it being removed just as people complained about giving in and adding rep comments again. People will always complain
    I agree. People will always complain. Let's keep that in mind as we peruse this thread, noting the small number of posters reiterating the same points until they are dull enough to bore their way into one's head by sheer repetition, possibly swaying ones opinion.


    Quote Originally Posted by F.C. View Post
    True, there may not be a wide variety of people posting in this thread. But this thread (and the other one) is far from a "circle jerk". Anybody is allowed to post, or not post, in this thread at their own free will and offer their own ideas. Whether they agree with ideas posted, or disagree, or have completely new ideas doesn't matter, they are free to post. That is the whole point of this thread and the other, for as many people as possible to maturely discuss possible ways Travian could be more welcoming to beginners.
    What is allowed, expected and wanted does not often meet our realities. This thread has indeed become a circle jerk of a small number of people complaining with the repetitious validity of a Rebecca Black hook. In fact, you may as well retitle the thread "No more rep system: No more tears."

    Quote Originally Posted by F.C. View Post
    I can also honestly tell you that I never considered removing the reputation system until I read valid points made in this thread. If you have more valid points about why the reputation system helps new players in the forums or have ideas to make this forum more welcoming to new posters then please post them. I want to see what you have to say as I am genuinely interested in all ideas.
    Positive and negative reinforcement. The people who quit the forums are quitters, not only by definition of the word, but by lack of virility in their actions. In my experience, quitting is all at once a symptom, a syndrome and an habitual disease. Quitting the game, quitting the forums, quitting in life. I don't think the problem lays with the forum community, but the individual.

    Quote Originally Posted by F.C. View Post
    The point that the reputation system creates a hierarchy of posters is a valid one. The forums really should be a place where new members and old ones are on an equal level from the start.
    A valid one and a correct one. Old and new members on equal footing from the start? That's just not the way the world works nor should it be the way the forums work. A certain amount of wisdom arises just from being around for a while. Ever met an imbecilic grandfather? No, the morons just tend to learn to keep quiet after a while. It's the same here, as it should be. When a poster asks an in-game question, ranks help for them to ascertain whether it is quality information or the over-rambunctious musings of another noob. It is hard to deny the fact that after being on the forums for so long, you glisten facts about this game that reign valid in comparison to someone who has just joined the forum. Let us not forget that this forum is for the game, whether people posting in this thread actually still play it or not (I can see two that started off in alliances I was in and dropped off the server within the first month).

    Quote Originally Posted by F.C. View Post
    This is a great point, and one that has been brought up before in this thread. I don't think anybody is denying that game activity also affects forum activity. But that doesn't mean we can do things on the forums to be more accommodating to the new players who are playing today.
    By overhauling the rep system and clasping virtual handcuffs on veterans. Viva la Revolucion?

    Quote Originally Posted by F.C. View Post
    I agree with you, mods shouldn't be trolls. But trolling is an issue on the forum that does cross the line at times causing new players to not want to participate in the forums.
    And without the trolls to bring life to the forums during the extreme periods of dull in-game play, lots of other posters would not visit the forums/keep posting/keep entertained. And even Ms. Evil (who delightfully referred to me as 'trollface' in an effort to show that she disdains trolling but performs it as another part of her hypocrisy) can tell you this: forums need trolls to survive. I realize your goal here is to bring new players in, but do not let that cloud your judgement at how you go about this won't affect the gold-buying base of veterans. You can not empty one flood gate in order to fill another unless the underlying sentiment is to flush out the old water and bring in the new.

    Besides, what is the Noob Corner section of this forum for, then? Perhaps you should start there telling new posters what to expect. In fact, RESTRICT new posters to the Noob Corner for a set amount of time. Why are you insistent that the loyal posters of this forum are the problem? Does loyalty and tenure fall flat when it comes to accommodating newer players? I'd hate to work at a place like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by F.C. View Post
    Again "bad posters" and "good ones" is a very subjective term. Sure maybe there were posters whose posting style was not liked and they got neg repped so they learned how to fit in with the status quo, but fitting in with the status quo does not allow the community to flow and evolve. That means that every new poster has to fit the image of what a good poster should be and stick to it, and the image of the good poster is most likely one that is exactly like the group of veteran posters at that time. That means, somebody who doesn't have the same personality or the ability to bend into the status quo won't have a chance on these forums. Additionally, it's hard to calculate how many forum members that lurk here before posting were dissuaded from ever posting due to the hierarchy system and the trolling that they may have seen.
    I'm just going to respond here to this and a previous comment you made about subjectivity. Yes, that is the point of reputation. It is subjective, and if enough people are telling you that you are drunk, no matter how sober you think you are, you're probably drunk. Consensus. Peer review. Working your way up in the system. This is the way the world works and there's a pretty good evolution of community in the world, no?

    So just to get this straight, you're advocating a system in which people will not have to learn to communicate with their peers, will not have to curb their ridiculousness in order to be a part of the community and further will take the fact that it's hard to calculate how many forum members that lurk here before posting were dissuaded from ever posting due to the hierarchy system and the trolling that they may have seen and use that to put forward the notion that the eliminating the rep system and blaming trolling will be the cure all. Argumentum ad ignorantiam much?

    Quote Originally Posted by F.C. View Post
    I understand how a new forum member may be intimidated by the forum hierarchy with the reputation system. A new forum member shouldn't have to learn how to play the game and learn how to play the forums. The forums should be a welcoming tool for new players to have somewhere in Travian to come in as relatively equal to other players and not have to catch up in population or in reputation to feel welcomed or a part of the community.
    See above comments I made on The Noob Corner and the total disregard your statement here has for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by F.C. View Post
    If there was a way to turn off reputation points and allow people to give plus rep or negative rep with the comments, but no points then that may be a good way to utilize the great feedback system the reputation system gives without creating such a strong forum hierarchy. In this way somebody won't have to join the forum and feel like they have to conform or hold back opinions or ideas to be able to get the same perks the forum members with more reputation have.
    Cool. Let's get a ton of Palistus's on here, as well as twenty million posters asking "wur mah ralle pont?" and then coddle them in an effort to bore ourselves to death, all the while not trolling them when their incessant idiocy becomes just too much for us to bear. Noob Corner, Noob Corner, Noob Corner. Restrict them there, train them there. I volunteer to be the gatekeeper that lets them out of the Noob Corner when they're ready.

    On a sidenote, I've spent too much time responding here and have to go play my accounts for a while so this is unedited and very stream of conscious, which I hate. Forgive me.

    EDIT: I couldn't walk away from this gem:

    Quote Originally Posted by Baghernia View Post
    Meh Baron is just a dirty troll, even trying to troll a constructive thread.
    He opens with an Ad Hominem fallacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baghernia View Post
    Claiming a minority is trying to represent the majority, then doing the same thing but alone... is a bit of an oxymoron.
    Then he goes to a Tu Quoque fallacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baghernia View Post
    Since you haven't been paying attention, the fact there are so few people having an input is representative of the problem. People don't want to get involved.
    Switches it up to Argumentum ad Ignorantiam.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baghernia View Post
    Your claim you will be derep for having an opposing opinion, backs our claim.
    Starts to bring it home with a Straw Man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baghernia View Post
    You've tried, you've failed, you've scored an own goal.
    And finally makes a soccer reference on an American forum.

    Thanks, Bags. Thanks for taking us on a tour on how not to post.

    And more gems of blind rage that someone could actually be for the rep system thus rendering them blind to comprehension:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Evil View Post
    A questions was asked to ALL forum members and he responded. This is the attitude that is the problem. That "they only have 20 posts they don't matter," or "they are a beggar, ignore them." No, everyone has a voice. Legion is expressing his. If this issue didn't matter to him he wouldn't post. He is one of those members who doesn't like to participate because they get insulted.
    Did you not read that he wrote he wants nothing to do with the majority of the posters. If you did, did you not understand why I said that I don't understand why he is here then, even if F.C. asked the question? I can't be repeating myself all night like you are in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Evil View Post
    I was once at the top of the rep chain for a long while. That didn't mean I spoke for the majority. JD is currently king. Does that mean we should all get drunk and post random things?
    No, the rep you receive speaks for the majority, not the person with the most rep speaks for the majority. Comprehension fail again. Are you just not even reading what I'm writing or is this more trolling by you?

    The rest of the things you've posted, you've already posted in this thread and I'm not the type to bounce stones off of a brick wall all night. Either read what I've said carefully or don't bother as it isn't worth either of our time otherwise.
    Last edited by Baron D'Holbach; 07-15-2011 at 01:51 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    Actually, I didn't recall who said it, just that it was thrown around. After a while, you guys started sounding alike, page after page with the same complaints even though no one was debating them. That's why I've stepped in here. So no, it wasn't a specific call to you as I didn't hear anything strong enough in your voice to pinpoint with accuracy.
    Fair enough. I guess two posts is an over the top addition to a thread (which, btw, was part of one big thread earlier. There were more points covered than just the rep discussion in my own posts, bar the last one). To each their own.

    Yes, and having been asked the same, here I am giving my opinions and calling out some of the hypocrisy and problems with the posts I've seen.
    Good. F.C. and anyone else on the staff who cares needs both sides of any opinion to make a balanced judgment.

    I'd like to think my trolling transcends the forums and is not limited to the Talk and Play section.
    With the way the P&D forums tend to operate, I didn't think it imperative to point out the obvious from those sections. T&P, however, seems like more of a discussion place (or it was ... I've not been here in a while actively) so seems more out of place there, hence my point. So, yes, it does transcend T&P. You're right.

    You're right in another point you made though, that the trolling in P&D makes for good reading a lot of the time. It just shouldn't, IMO, be all that's done in there.

    I don't get why you are here then, even if you feel compelled to give your opinion because FC asked. It seems that the forums don't matter to you.
    I used to really enjoy these forums. I was a very active poster in talk and play and the S4 forum during round 2. I haven't liked the direction that the forums have taken so stopped showing up other than about once a month to take a look at what the hot topics were in Talk and Play. Wherein I saw much of the same trolling being done, over and over and over.

    I'm not some butt-hurt guy who got beat down in a thread and decided to ragequit. Contrary to what Ms. Evil mentioned in her post, it's not because I've been insulted or anything of that nature. I simply made the decision to do something more constructive with my time instead of taking the time to write long-winded walls of text (akin to this one) stating my point to people who would more than likely not be swayed even if I made a valid argument. Or going over the same old territory time after time after time (how many times have we beat the Existence of God topic to death in T&P?)

    That being said, the reason I was even in these forums to begin with was to glean some more information that a pair of newbies around me on S4 (and who subsequently came with me to S1) had asked which I didn't have immediate answers for so I was trying to figure out what the answer was. I happened to see FCs post and because I used to frequent this place, figured I'd weigh in.

    You're right though, since the majority of this place is something I'm no longer interested in, I should just go back to lurking and only reading the pertinent information in the Guide, Questions and Announcements forums. Hell, if they'd do what one poster had mentioned earlier in the thread and make the forums open to anyone to view (Guides, General, etc) I wouldn't even need to log in anymore at all.

    I'd like to point out that you've said, "...you get rep," without mentioning whether it is positive or negative until the last example. Even if this wasn't your intent, the rest of your post seems so carefully worded that I'm going to have to look at this as a slip. You get rep. Yes. That's the point of the rep system. Say something witty and get rep? It reflects what the majority wants to see more or less of.

    So while neither you nor I speak for the majority, your rep does.
    As you stated, you knew the intent of the message. Get = gain, or procure more of, however you'd like to look at it. Hence making a point to separate the loss of rep for thwapping the e-peen of the Top Posters. I overlooked the distinction or would have put it in there. Thank you for pointing it out and, please, twist a little harder, Baron. It's OK, I don't mind.
    Last edited by Legionnaire67; 07-15-2011 at 03:00 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legionnaire67 View Post
    I'm not some butt-hurt guy who got beat down in a thread and decided to ragequit. Contrary to what Ms. Evil mentioned in her post, it's not because I've been insulted or anything of that nature.
    No, you didn't strike me as that type and I'm pretty sure I didn't insinuate that.

    I pay no attention to Evil's assumptions. I recognized her implying you were hurt by posters on this forum as a smaller example of what she's trying to do in this thread, which is one of my biggest problems with this thread: she's operating under the guise of caring about bringing new players in or protecting players from trolls (like herself) only to push her anti-rep agenda forward, which in itself, is one giant troll on her part.

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    What Baron continues to ignore, is that every thread quickly reduces to what he calls the "circle jerk". even this thread... funny enough this thread is trying to resolve that.

    Continual weak trolling where people are seriously trying to assist/resolve an issue is just pathetic.

    Add your piece if you want to, but to then condemn others for saying their piece(s), continues Baron quest to be as hypocritical as he can be.


    Then again he has succeeded, like he does with every thread, making himself the centre of attention, just like the Rep system, he is seeking some kind of warped validation.
    Last edited by Baghernia; 07-15-2011 at 03:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baghernia View Post
    What Baron continues to ignore, is that every thread quickly reduces to what he calls the "circle jerk". even this thread... funny enough this thread is trying to resolve that.

    Continual weak trolling where people are seriously trying to assist/resolve an issue is just pathetic.

    Add your piece if you want to, but to then condemn others for saying their piece(s), continues Baron quest to be as hypocritical as he can be.


    Then again he has succeeded, like he does with every thread, making himself the centre of attention, just like the Rep system, he is seeking some kind of warped validation.
    Feel better now that you got that out?

    The fact that you could do nothing to address my points besides a worthless post full of fallacies dismisses yourself before I even get a chance to. Also, I can't help it if every time I post I become the focus of the thread for you. I guess I am pretty charismatic.

    If you aren't going to contribute, please take your trolling to another thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    Well, F.C., it's pretty clear where you stand on this and that you've stopped just hosting the discussion and started opining on it. Be careful or Ms. Evil might start yelling, "Mod Bias!" Oh wait, she won't do that. You agree with her. And the smackings of hypocrisy continue...
    Yes, from reading the discussions of others I've realized some things that I wouldn't have realized before. I started this thread, and I have been replying to it while offering my own ideas and formulating my own opinions which I thought I was allowed to do. I've said before, my opinions are my own and not reflective of TG or the Travian.us staff. I'm continuing to offer my opinions and ideas and build on them as people continue to post. If others come here with good reasons and ideas for making our forums more accommodating to new players I will gladly read them and continue to evolve my opinions based on those ideas.



    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    I agree. People will always complain. Let's keep that in mind as we peruse this thread, noting the small number of posters reiterating the same points until they are dull enough to bore their way into one's head by sheer repetition, possibly swaying ones opinion.
    There have been a large number of people that have offered their ideas and opinions between the two threads, as this one is an offshoot of the original. Yes some points have been made several times, some ideas have come up several times, but as the discussion continues these points and ideas have been built upon. And as the thread lives and people continue to discuss more people will see it and offer their ideas and opinions.

    I'm sorry if this type of discussion bores you, I'm not forcing you to post here if it truly does bore you. But I've found it extremely beneficial so far and I hope to continue learning from it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    What is allowed, expected and wanted does not often meet our realities. This thread has indeed become a circle jerk of a small number of people complaining with the repetitious validity of a Rebecca Black hook. In fact, you may as well retitle the thread "No more rep system: No more tears."
    I guess we have differing definitions of a what a circle jerk is. I still believe this thread is not a circle jerk and has been beneficial and look forward to seeing what else comes from it. It's still only a few days old and open to anybody who wants to offer their ideas, whether they are ideas that match those that have already been stated or ones that differ.

    "No more rep system: No more tears." is actually a good slogan, I'll have to remember that!

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    Positive and negative reinforcement. The people who quit the forums are quitters, not only by definition of the word, but by lack of virility in their actions. In my experience, quitting is all at once a symptom, a syndrome and an habitual disease. Quitting the game, quitting the forums, quitting in life. I don't think the problem lays with the forum community, but the individual.
    It seems that you think positive and negative reinforcement can only be accomplished by the reputation system. This is completely untrue, you can still have the same reinforcement without it. Banning and warning members can effectively give the negative enforcement needed to the ones breaking the rules, without further help from the members through negative rep. People who ask the same question again can be answered and pointed into the direction on information about the search feature and the guides. People who have poor spelling and grammar can be ignored or told about the issue. Members that are helpful, funny, and contribute positively to the forums can be given a PM positively reinforcing their behaviors or just enjoy the forums themselves. All of this can be done without reputation and without forcing new members to quit or conform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    A valid one and a correct one. Old and new members on equal footing from the start? That's just not the way the world works nor should it be the way the forums work. A certain amount of wisdom arises just from being around for a while. Ever met an imbecilic grandfather? No, the morons just tend to learn to keep quiet after a while. It's the same here, as it should be. When a poster asks an in-game question, ranks help for them to ascertain whether it is quality information or the over-rambunctious musings of another noob. It is hard to deny the fact that after being on the forums for so long, you glisten facts about this game that reign valid in comparison to someone who has just joined the forum. Let us not forget that this forum is for the game, whether people posting in this thread actually still play it or not (I can see two that started off in alliances I was in and dropped off the server within the first month).
    You may have forgotten, but these forums are not the world. If a community is going to continue to grow and bring in new people they have to be welcomed. But not only be physically welcomed, they need to feel welcomed. Equal footing from the start offers that. This is a forum that serves as a supplement to the game, where people can go to learn or make friends. Like I said before, they shouldn't have to learn how to play the forums when they are already learning how to play the game.

    I also believe that the reputation system ranking doesn't accurately represent the people that are most reliable when answering new players questions. There is a large number of members at the top of the rep system based ranking that don't play anymore and a handful that don't even visit the forums. What these ranks represent, is not the reliability or skill a member has in-game, but rather how well these members have assimilated into this forum's culture. There are many players throughout the embassy sections that post once in a while, they aren't the highest ranked or highest repped members, but they know all about the game and are great players. Those are the reliable sources, not often are the Senators or Consuls, or the top 50 most repped members the most reliable sources for information.

    I've not forgotten that this forum is for the game, and your recognition that their are members on this forum who don't play anymore further supports my qualms with the reputation system, especially because I haven't seen many new members post on this thread. It's all fairly well established and long term members.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    By overhauling the rep system and clasping virtual handcuffs on veterans. Viva la Revolucion?
    I'm not sure how it clasps handcuffs on veterans. Without the rep system they would still be able to do everything they were able to, but now new members will be able to do them as well. Which is essential to an open and growing forum environment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    And without the trolls to bring life to the forums during the extreme periods of dull in-game play, lots of other posters would not visit the forums/keep posting/keep entertained. And even Ms. Evil (who delightfully referred to me as 'trollface' in an effort to show that she disdains trolling but performs it as another part of her hypocrisy) can tell you this: forums need trolls to survive. I realize your goal here is to bring new players in, but do not let that cloud your judgement at how you go about this won't affect the gold-buying base of veterans. You can not empty one flood gate in order to fill another unless the underlying sentiment is to flush out the old water and bring in the new.
    I'm not denying that trolls offer a life to this forum, and all forums, that are needed. But trolls should not be the ruling party of a forum. Trolls should be there to heckle you as you attempt to cross over the bridge on your forum journey, not heckle you during the entire trip.

    From forum PMs I have gotten forum new members and lurkers over the couple years as a mod I know that the trolls who flame each other and others during the dull times end up driving many possible forum users away, or forcing them to the shadows. When trolls take over during a dull time, there is not much room for other people to come back in when activity picks up again. When you say others will not be entertained during this dull time, you are saying the other trolls who appreciate trolling will not be entertained or stay active. However all of the people that do not appreciate trolling are driven away. Again, this is not conducive to an open and growing community when it's a group of trolls there to entertain each other. Additionally, you can still troll without reputation, can't you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    Besides, what is the Noob Corner section of this forum for, then? Perhaps you should start there telling new posters what to expect. In fact, RESTRICT new posters to the Noob Corner for a set amount of time. Why are you insistent that the loyal posters of this forum are the problem? Does loyalty and tenure fall flat when it comes to accommodating newer players? I'd hate to work at a place like that.
    This is actually an interesting idea, again why I started this thread. Forcing the Noob Corner to be the only place a new player can go for a certain amount of time would make sure they not only notice the Noob Corner (or the General Travian category only), but hopefully also participate in it and read the helpful information posted there. However, you can't expect a new player to be satisfied with the Noob Corner for more than a day or two after registering. They should be able to go to the rest of the forums after that introductory period. And once they get there they should be welcomed into a friendly community.

    Loyalty and tenure does not fall flat at all. But the way you are describing it, that is the only group of people that is being welcomed into the community. Except for the select few that overcome the tough hierarchy system. There should be much more of a balance between accommodating the long time members and the new members than we currently have as we cannot expect every long term member to stay a part of this community for the rest of their life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    I'm just going to respond here to this and a previous comment you made about subjectivity. Yes, that is the point of reputation. It is subjective, and if enough people are telling you that you are drunk, no matter how sober you think you are, you're probably drunk. Consensus. Peer review. Working your way up in the system. This is the way the world works and there's a pretty good evolution of community in the world, no?
    Again, this is not the world. Yes, the world is tough, but people come to play games and join communities to escape from many of the difficulties in the world. This forum and the game should not be communities where it is difficult to work your way up the system. Especially the forums. If you look at the evolution of this community (where there are not new people being born every day to accommodate those that die like in the world) we are becoming a community with fewer active members where the most active members are all positioned at the top of this system. At this rate our community will continue to evolve in this direction until only the most stubborn trolls or most hardy veteran users survive and get bored. We need to have a better rate of new members being accepted into the community and not get neg repped deep into beggar status for making one wrong move. Yes, the lack of new players in the game has an affect on the amount of new members that come to the forums but at the same time the current system is not as accommodating as it could be for those that do join.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    So just to get this straight, you're advocating a system in which people will not have to learn to communicate with their peers, will not have to curb their ridiculousness in order to be a part of the community and further will take the fact that it's hard to calculate how many forum members that lurk here before posting were dissuaded from ever posting due to the hierarchy system and the trolling that they may have seen and use that to put forward the notion that the eliminating the rep system and blaming trolling will be the cure all. Argumentum ad ignorantiam much?
    I'm not sure how they won't have to learn to communicate. They won't be losing their ability to post, which these are forums, and posting is the main form of communication. The way you describe it is as if you want to set up a training program where only the top 5 of the class who prove to best fit your idea of the ideal forum member can graduate into members of this forum. And that is not how it should be. If you think that the reputation system is the only way to give positive and negative rewards and the only way to help new members learn to communicate then we certainly have become too centered around this reputation system.

    And I know between PMs I received from more lurking forum members to conversations I've had with alliance members who read the forums but don't post, there is a large number of those lurkers who would love to be a part of a more friendly and equal community. And this is despite the lull in-game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    See above comments I made on The Noob Corner and the total disregard your statement here has for it.
    I'm not sure how that has a total disregard for the Noob Corner. Yes, the Noob Corner is an effective tool for helping new players, but it is not the final solution. The Noob Corner has been in place for a while now, it's not a new feature for new players. Your idea for the use of the Noob Corner is to trap them there and the ones that don't get bored with that single section and can post funny and smart posts as well as demonstrate the ability to troll other users will graduate. That is not an effective tool for accommodating new players.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    Cool. Let's get a ton of Palistus's on here, as well as twenty million posters asking "wur mah ralle pont?" and then coddle them in an effort to bore ourselves to death, all the while not trolling them when their incessant idiocy becomes just too much for us to bear. Noob Corner, Noob Corner, Noob Corner. Restrict them there, train them there. I volunteer to be the gatekeeper that lets them out of the Noob Corner when they're ready.
    I guess I'm lucky that I have a relatively high patience level for players that make it to the forums and are able to use it to ask questions to find out more about the game. Maybe that's from my time as a member of Support. Regardless, I think we need to help those players learn no matter how bad their grammar, how frequent the question, or how bad their spelling. It's not our job to decide who plays the game and uses the forums or not based on their first few posts or questions on the forums. However the reputation system gives the old members who may have seen that question 100 times the power to do so. I also doubt that we will have twenty million members register and ask that same question, and if we do then Travian definitely hit the jackpot on advertising.

    A key to being a long time forum member is to be patient and answer those questions multiple times regardless of its spelling or grammar. That is what the wise old man would do, right? The grumpy old man would be the one that chases these new players off their lawn and not pass on their wisdom to the next generation, which may be detrimental to attracting and keeping that next generation.

    I guess, in the end, I am just a part of this Circle Jerk Revolutionary party though, and what I say will not be truly received with an open mind. I just hope that in further posts you continue to make your point and share your ideas and opinions in a less accusing way and offer additional ideas to help new players. Although, from your posts it seems that helping new players isn't much of a concern to you with your only ideas to help new players and keep the reputation system is to chase away the ones that don't fit your idea of who should be a part of this community and lock the rest in the Noob Corner until they demonstrate favorable qualities. I am glad you have posted though, it has made me think more deeply about the opinions I have been forming in this discussion and also has been a much need Devil's Advocate to all of the earlier consensus. I hope you take the time to read and offer your ideas in the other thread as well. And please feel free to show this thread to other Travian players for them to offer their ideas as well. If you really think this has become a circle jerk thread, then that would be the best way to un-circle jerk it (I'm not sure what the appropriate term is for the opposite of a circle jerk).
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