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Thread: Gauls Are Weak

  1. #1

    Default Gauls Are Weak

    "Since the latest changes to the game, it seems that experienced Gaul players feel an unfair advantage has been given to Teutons and Romans with the brewery and drinking trough.

    We feel the Gallic upgrades to the cranny and trapper are nowhere near as useful or effective as the Teuton and Roman buildings.

    Most experienced Gauls do not use trappers or crannies outside of the first few weeks in the game. As a group, we wonder if the devs plan on giving the Gaul tribe an upgrade that is actually useful for the whole game, as they did with the Romans and Teutons."

    The trapper, even the new one suggested in 4.0, is very weak and has a short-term effect when compared to the roman and teuton unique buildings. There is no point in keeping such an useless building...

    Two ideas that may help (I personally prefer the first):

    "Gallic TS"
    Speed is supposedly a Gallic strength, but this advantage breaks down when it comes to siege engine speed. Catapults negate any speed advantage Gauls have. The basic idea here is to upgrade the Gallic Tournament Square to make units a little faster.

    Gallic Tournament Square: Effective after 20 (or 30) tiles. Improves ram base speed to 5 at lv.10, cata base speed to 4 at lv.20 (has no effect with other troop types)

    The second idea:

    "Gallic Ceremonies" that boost troops def. by 1% per level, and maybe increase speed of all troops by 1% per level. However, chiefs' effectiveness will be reduced when activated. It can only be built by Gauls in the capital but affects the entire acct. maximum: lv.10

    With an upgrade such as these two, Gauls would be closer with the other tribes in power.
    Teutons get attack/time, Romans get improved attack/crop, Gauls would get improved speed and/or def.
    Last edited by why not; 08-24-2010 at 10:15 PM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by why not View Post
    "Since the latest changes to the game, it seems that experienced Gaul players feel an unfair advantage has been given to Teutons and Romans with the brewery and drinking trough.

    We feel the Gallic upgrades to the cranny and trapper are nowhere near as useful or effective as the Teuton and Roman buildings.

    Most experienced Gauls do not use trappers or crannies outside of the first few weeks in the game. As a group, we wonder if the devs plan on giving the Gaul tribe an upgrade that is actually useful for the whole game, as they did with the Romans and Teutons."

    The trapper, even the new one suggested in 4.0, is very weak and has a short-term effect when compared to the roman and teuton unique buildings. There is no point in keeping such an useless building...
    The fact that Gauls are attacked less than Teutons or Romans, for the most part, in the first few weeks gives Gauls a huge advantage, and they are:
    -able to farm with less chance of retaliation (except if they are messing with the wrong player, in which case that player would attack back in any case)
    -get TTs
    -wreck Teutons with those TTs, and make raiding more efficient by cutting out the Teuton cranny dip in their area
    -cheap settlers, so you can pop out a new village and get a headstart

    Just a few points.

    Quote Originally Posted by why not View Post

    Gallic TS
    Speed is supposedly a Gallic strength, but this advantage breaks down when it comes to siege engine speed. Catapults negate any speed advantage Gauls have. The basic idea here is to upgrade the Gallic Tournament Square to make units a little faster.

    Gallic Tournament Square: Effective after 20 tiles. Improves ram base speed to 5 at lv.10, cata base speed to 4 at lv.20
    Are you kidding me? If a Gaul has a TT ghost hammer, and a TS of any shape, that hammer is already a speed demon. If that Gaul gets a speed arti? That ghost hammer will ruin a quad or 4's life.

    Quote Originally Posted by why not View Post
    The second idea:

    "Gallic Ceremonies" that boost troops def. by 1% per level, and increase speed by 1% per level.However, chiefs' effectiveness will be reduced. It can only be built by Gauls in the capital.

    With an upgrade such as these two, Gauls would be closer with the other tribes in power.
    Teutons get attack/time, Romans get improved attack/crop, Gauls would get improved speed and def.
    So, would this building be capped out at level 10, or 20? A 20% increase of speed, in addition to a TS? Druids are already pretty dang fast for a defender, adding that extra speed seems kind of unfair, especially because no other tribe gets a specific speed related bonus building.

    As for the increased defense... possibly? If the building was topped out at 10, that might be fair.

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    While I agree the Gauls could use a little kick, I don't think anything like that is necessary. Why not just have Gaulish seige weaponry a field faster per hour than the other tribes'. That would be fair I think and play to the Gaul strengths.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sleeping Bear View Post
    The fact that Gauls are attacked less than Teutons or Romans, for the most part, in the first few weeks gives Gauls a huge advantage, and they are:
    -able to farm with less chance of retaliation (except if they are messing with the wrong player, in which case that player would attack back in any case)
    -get TTs
    -wreck Teutons with those TTs, and make raiding more efficient by cutting out the Teuton cranny dip in their area
    -cheap settlers, so you can pop out a new village and get a headstart

    Just a few points.
    Only a small amount of players will refrain from attacking a gaul just out of fear of a few traps- any good teuton will break the trapped troops out and keep farming.
    Are you kidding me? If a Gaul has a TT ghost hammer, and a TS of any shape, that hammer is already a speed demon. If that Gaul gets a speed arti? That ghost hammer will ruin a quad or 4's life.
    It's only an increase of +1 to siege weapons, so it makes no difference to TT ghost hammers- they will be the same as it is now, with or without an arty.
    So, would this building be capped out at level 10, or 20? A 20% increase of speed, in addition to a TS? Druids are already pretty dang fast for a defender, adding that extra speed seems kind of unfair, especially because no other tribe gets a specific speed related bonus building.

    As for the increased defense... possibly? If the building was topped out at 10, that might be fair.
    It would basically be like the teuton brewery except instead of boosting attk/def, it will boost def/speed, which are supposed to be the gauls' "speciality" in the game. As for what level the building tops out at, well, it's just an idea. Discussion, comments, suggestions, etc. are welcome.

    Why the emphasis on speed? That is the only thing that makes Gauls unique. Otherwise, it will simply be a lame "in-between" of the other two tribes, except worse than both. It seems kind of unfair that romans would get a building that increases their attk/crop when it is already the best, and it seems kind of unfair that teutons get something that increases their attack power when they already have the best attk/time...

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    i agree gauls are weak but in the begining they are good cheap settlers some people don't want traped troops but in the end they just quit one by one they have fast troops but all in all its not quite fair for gauls and i think its kind of unfair that romans have a building that increases their attack and crop. I rest my case

  6. #6

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    guals do need a lil boost i think somthing minimal should help though like a higher def bonus from a building like the 1% thing you said but only cap it at 10% or 15% i think 20% is too much

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    ok, first of all, there's already a big thread about this from not too long ago.
    Secondly,
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    I agree - Gauls were nerfed again.
    No. Trappers just got a big boost in worthwhile-ness. (not a word, but it makes my point)
    And a TS kicks in at 20? That's a huge boost for Gauls. TTs now need just 1 hour, 3 minutes and 9 seconds before the TS kicks in. That's a full 31 minutes (and 35 seconds) of extra time those TTs are able to go 57 squares/hr instead of a "mere" 19. That's an extra 33 squares of distance in the time it takes the current TTs to hit the TS "barrier". In other words, TTs currently get to 30 squares in 1:34:44, but under the TS they can travel 63 squares in that time! Sorry, but that's a HUGE boost for Gauls.

    Quote Originally Posted by why not View Post
    Only a small amount of players will refrain from attacking a gaul just out of fear of a few traps- any good teuton will break the trapped troops out and keep farming.
    Really? At the cost of 1/4 of your troops? You'll just keep popping traps?
    100 traps = 25 dead maces. And as cheap as maces are, traps are cheaper. As a gaul, I'll happily let you keep "breaking" my traps at the cost of 1/4 of your troops. And while you weaken your forces like that, I'll build up some phalanx to wipe out the rest of them.

    It's only an increase of +1 to siege weapons, so
    It is a huge difference.
    And more so in combination with the new TS, which means your new gaulic cats will hit the TS usefulness at just 5 hours!
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    Unfortunately, the travain team thought that the guals were overpowered. (Thus the 1 rat to make guallic phalanx raiding a major PITA)

    I know this because I was *****ing about it on the travian team forums and the travian developer told me that it was intentional because the guals are not "an early game raiding tribe" like the Teutons. I proceeded to call him a noob, not knowing that he was the head dev.

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    Philosopher MokMonster's Avatar
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    Nice double-post, Jono.

    As for "power" that really depends on how you look at it. If you want to talk building a proper hammer, then they are a little underpowered. But for creating defense? Mobile defense? Ghost hammer? They are unrivaled for these things.

    And yes, they suck at early game raiding. There is a definite 1-2-3 in early raiding. But mid-game? I think TTs rule for mid-game raiding. EIs might have it for late-game raiding though, especially with the HDP. TTs are still awesome though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by why not View Post
    Only a small amount of players will refrain from attacking a gaul just out of fear of a few traps- any good teuton will break the trapped troops out and keep farming.
    Then a good teuton would be made my personal farm the first time he tried attacking me. I'll more than likely have TTs just a short while out of bp.

    Quote Originally Posted by MokMonster View Post
    As for "power" that really depends on how you look at it. If you want to talk building a proper hammer, then they are a little underpowered.
    Pretty much.

    But for creating defense? Mobile defense?
    They have probably the only balanced defender and the only real fast defender. This is if we exclude haeds due to being too expensive and assume teutons will each have some spears for defense. Overall, when looking at overall strength, romans and teutons make the better anvils because they have the stronger anvil units and theirs stack for the best defense combo. All gauls have is a balanced unit and a faster unit.

    I've come across some very well made and convincing arguments that gauls are the worst defensive race as well as the worst offensive race.

    Ghost hammer?
    At 84% the speed but 1.6x the attack/time it's my belief, especially with artifacts and the HDP, that the roman EI can do this far better than Gauls.

    They are unrivaled for these things.
    Eh I'm a bit hesitant to agree. If haeds were cheaper or if they had a separate anti-cavalry cavalry unit that was specifically for defense I would agree with the defense. If they had a fast unit that wasn't pretty much the worst attacker in regards to atk/time and atk/wheat I'd also agree as well. I mean if you take speed out of it using a TT is pretty much the same as attacking with a lego and we all know how suck that is. EI have nearly the same speed while being one of the top couple of units in the game with atk/time and atk/wheat. I do feel that gaul ghosts might go to the wayside soon in favor of roman ghosts.

    And yes, they suck at early game raiding. There is a definite 1-2-3 in early raiding.
    Not quite. And during the first week or two phalanx can hold their own. They're also good enough that next server I'm going to think of just skipping teching TTs period since on s1 they seemed to be a huge drain on my economy. But then again going anvil they are where not needed so who knows.

    Meh one of my big arguments would be that in mid and late game gauls and romans should start to come to the top with raiding and attacking. Basically a few of them should have ghosts and will likely be raiding like hell with TTs and EI. I'd say the biggest hurt on Gauls is the RP restrictions. If i am forced to only have 100 troop movements there is no way i can have a ghost hammer build itself off of raiding alone. This is one of their major advantages over other races mid game and whatnot and the RP restrictions has taken it away from them.

    I'll agree that with most here the traps are quiet beneficial. They aren't great but the time they can buy is invaluable. With TTs being as fast and cheap as they are it really does make early game that much easier when dealing with teutons. Especially since they have those fragile maces. But yeah once inactives delete and farms need to be made with cats gauls start to lose any advantage they have to the teutons who can tech cats first.


    Looking at numbers i would have to agree that gauls are a bit under powered. However, after seeing something like the allah account getting over 1 billion raiding and 2.2 million kills on a server as a gaul i start to question how much playing styles and talent comes into play with the numbers. If a gaul is able to get two stats that i believe to be records for the .us servers then yeah I'm going to question the whole "gauls are weak" talk. The stats seems to point to them possibly being quite strong. maybe too strong.
    Last edited by dirtyfrank; 08-17-2010 at 06:28 PM.
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    I think the traps will kill off a certain number of troops if the attacker breaks them free. This makes negotitations for release a viable option now. Another reason not to attack gauls in early game, allowing them to sim for TT's.

    Advantage gauls, not to mention roman's and tueton's now rely heavily on cavalry making the phalanx a worth while defender.

    Just my thoughts.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by MokMonster View Post
    No. Trappers just got a big boost in worthwhile-ness. (not a word, but it makes my point)
    And a TS kicks in at 20? That's a huge boost for Gauls. TTs now need just 1 hour, 3 minutes and 9 seconds before the TS kicks in. That's a full 31 minutes (and 35 seconds) of extra time those TTs are able to go 57 squares/hr instead of a "mere" 19. That's an extra 33 squares of distance in the time it takes the current TTs to hit the TS "barrier". In other words, TTs currently get to 30 squares in 1:34:44, but under the TS they can travel 63 squares in that time! Sorry, but that's a HUGE boost for Gauls.
    That goes for all tribes, TK moves faster, EI/EC moves faster also.
    Really? At the cost of 1/4 of your troops? You'll just keep popping traps?
    100 traps = 25 dead maces. And as cheap as maces are, traps are cheaper. As a gaul, I'll happily let you keep "breaking" my traps at the cost of 1/4 of your troops. And while you weaken your forces like that, I'll build up some phalanx to wipe out the rest of them.
    Let me give you some calculations.

    Cost of one trap * 4 (because only 25% will be killed when forcibly released)
    (35+30+10+20)*4 = 380
    Cost of one clubbie (the rest will survive)
    95 + 75 + 40 + 40 = 250

    Teutons lose less res. than a gaul would.
    It is a huge difference.
    And more so in combination with the new TS, which means your new gaulic cats will hit the TS usefulness at just 5 hours!
    Teuton brewery gives teutons 10% attk/def, which is huge too, especially because they already have attk/time advantage. Roman HDT gives roman cavalary -1 crop upkeep, which becomes huge when you have troops for a long time. In fact, because of the HDT, gauls end up with the only scout that isn't 1 crop/hr.

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    Quote Originally Posted by why not View Post
    That goes for all tribes, TK moves faster, EI/EC moves faster also.
    Yes, but TKs will take a little over 2 full hours to even get to the TS boost. TTs do it in barely over an hour. This type of thing helps them more than TKs or EIs -- though it does make EI nastier too.

    Cost of one trap * 4 (because only 25% will be killed when forcibly released)
    (35+30+10+20)*4 = 380
    Cost of one clubbie (the rest will survive)
    95 + 75 + 40 + 40 = 250
    Yeah, except now add in a low lvl residence and wall. Teut lose 2 maces every trip now, doubling their cost. Add in the cranny and now you lose 1-2 maces for no reason... why would you ever hit a gaul early game?

    Teuton brewery gives...
    Roman HDT gives...
    Yes, no doubt the brewery and HDP are better... though the cost of the HDP is pretty steep, especially in comparison to a trapper. And yes, I'd much rather have the HDP... I'm not saying this makes the gaul invincible, I'm saying it is a boost for them.

    Personally, I'd rather see the trapper removed entirely and something else added to their arsenal instead. Whether that is a speed boost or some sort of defensive boost, I don't care.
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    Quote Originally Posted by why not View Post
    Cost of one trap * 4 (because only 25% will be killed when forcibly released)
    (35+30+10+20)*4 = 380
    Cost of one clubbie (the rest will survive)
    95 + 75 + 40 + 40 = 250
    The mace is the only raiding unit cheaper than 4 traps (the only other two units are the spear and phalanx). They will not be the only troops killed by these new traps (which have zero consumption).

    HUGE advantage to the gaul.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MokMonster View Post
    Personally, I'd rather see the trapper removed entirely and something else added to their arsenal instead. Whether that is a speed boost or some sort of defensive boost, I don't care.
    That's basically what I want.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wren View Post
    The mace is the only raiding unit cheaper than 4 traps (the only other two units are the spear and phalanx). They will not be the only troops killed by these new traps (which have zero consumption).

    HUGE advantage to the gaul.
    Mace, legionnaire, and phalanx are what people are forced to use in the start. You just listed two of the three as being cheaper than 4 traps, not to mention that most of the raids flying around in early-game will be maces anyway. Yes, the traps have no crop consumption, but they can't raid any res. either. The trapper is an early-game "fear"-factor, and that's all it's useful for. The teuton and roman buildings are far more powerful and are useful in midgame through endgame.

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    I agree Gauls'a have been nerfed again with 4.0, but not for the reason the OP has suggested, who sounds like a noob Travian player, if he doesnt realised how much fear of the trapper stops most players from attacking.

    I believe the killing of troops for no auto repair actually weakens a Gaul.

    With 3.5 you hit once, you may win, but you're not likely to go back. Auto rebuild, also makes it harder to know if the account is on at the time.

    With 4.0 you lose some, but you know unless that account was awake, you can immediately hit again with little risk. The fear of the trapper is nullified after one hit.


    I also refute, the idea that good Gaul players dont use Trappers beyond a few weeks. Statement like that shows a narrow mind, or someone coseted in a strong alliance/meta for too long.



    My suggestion for the 4.0 is... MORE TRAPS!!!


    The psychological effects of traps are damn strong. Sitter raiders dont' raid Gauls, only as a last resort, or if they know there are no traps.

    Its not worth the time/effort.


    4.0 killing troops, is just pandering to the newbs of the game, as stated I believe it actually weakens the Gaul account. Stating comments like repeated attacks on a Gaul, does not work for me, since people know that their troops are going to die, and will only attack when they can absolutely destroy that player.

    Whereas with auto rebuilt traps, and cheaper traps, mean a constant fear.

    The more expensive traps, also doesn't make multiple trappers as viable.


    Trappers are a neutral deterrant not an offensive force that we can constantly use. Their increase in price and no auto rebuild, is not worth killing some troops.
    Last edited by Baghernia; 08-17-2010 at 12:25 AM.

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    I tested the trapper usability on the 2x championship server. Using only the gold given for free, I had 64 traps coming out of BP. The main hindrance for the trapper is YES, they're amazingly cheap, but leveling them because aggravating after the questmaster shipments stop.

    If you make these killing traps, but increase their costs, this won't really help Gauls out unless they know exactly how to budget their costs, and those who do will be raiding with TT's instead of making traps anyways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baghernia View Post
    I agree Gauls'a have been nerfed again with 4.0, but not for the reason the OP has suggested, who sounds like a noob Travian player, if he doesnt realised how much fear of the trapper stops most players from attacking.
    I think you sound like a n00b for loving trappers so much and exaggerating their effectiveness. Go ahead and build yourself 4000 traps in your capital.

    Only n00bs (which include many people, I admit, such as you) are warded off by the "fear" of trappers, but good raiders will most definitely attack every village near them regardless of tribe. I've started servers with all the tribes and I have always been attacked at least once in early-game regardless of what tribe I am.

    Maybe the trappers get a gaul a few more days of peace. That's about it (if even that), and I'd rather have something like the brewery or HDT instead of a thing that might prevent me from getting attacked for a few days in the start of the game.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by why not View Post
    I think you sound like a n00b for loving trappers so much and exaggerating their effectiveness. Go ahead and build yourself 4000 traps in your capital.

    Only n00bs (which include many people, I admit, such as you) are warded off by the "fear" of trappers, but good raiders will most definitely attack every village near them regardless of tribe. I've started servers with all the tribes and I have always been attacked at least once in early-game regardless of what tribe I am.

    Maybe the trappers get a gaul a few more days of peace. That's about it (if even that), and I'd rather have something like the brewery or HDT instead of a thing that might prevent me from getting attacked for a few days in the start of the game.

    The majority of the game, attacks are rarely higher than a few thousand troops. Other than the top players, who might want to focus on you, no defense is going to stop them.

    For the rest, a few thousands at most, 400 traps alone will hurt a substantial amount of them, 2 or more trappers with some natural defense will actually stop them.


    I'm sorry you can't understand the game, if you actually believe people don't attack Gauls because of trappers.


    From reading your posts, it sounds like you're the typical Teuton player who can only play one way. Blinded to all possibilties.
    Last edited by Baghernia; 08-17-2010 at 12:46 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by why not View Post
    I think you sound like a n00b for loving trappers so much and exaggerating their effectiveness. Go ahead and build yourself 4000 traps in your capital.

    Only n00bs (which include many people, I admit, such as you) are warded off by the "fear" of trappers, but good raiders will most definitely attack every village near them regardless of tribe. I've started servers with all the tribes and I have always been attacked at least once in early-game regardless of what tribe I am.

    Maybe the trappers get a gaul a few more days of peace. That's about it (if even that), and I'd rather have something like the brewery or HDT instead of a thing that might prevent me from getting attacked for a few days in the start of the game.
    No trappers aren't the best. However, I only built a trapper on S1 maybe... Three weeks ago and I was only ever attacked by one player at my spawn this entire server: a top 50 Teuton. I was scouted today and that failed. I have also received two attacks at my second village, which doesn't contain a trapper . Traps are scary early game, especially for Gauls. If you raid with phalanx then anyone the traps don't capture is probably dead, and breaking them out is near impossible. With TT's you lose out on time, which is essential to getting the new farms before the Teutons, who can hit crannied up inactives and still receive resources, and they are very expensive to lose/mass produce to break out. Romans face similar problems with cost.

    On 3.5 or 4.0 traps are an effective deterrent, unless you're facing a Teuton with many troops. The killing thing will make them even deadlier throughout the game, although still not as useful as other buildings. However, with a Trapper/Cranny/Cheap Settlers combo I would say that Gauls have it "made in the shade" when it comes to early game except for raiding. Mid game they have a speed advantage for the now far away raiding, which makes it easier. End Game, I would say Gauls are lacking in advantages, but with a smart player and those other two advantages I would say that they could grow enough to combat or cancel out those problems.

    I still do think slightly faster siege weaponry would help with the sucky Hammers, and it would fit the Speed thing. I don't think Gauls need a super TS either.
    Last edited by Shader; 08-17-2010 at 03:02 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baghernia View Post
    The majority of the game, attacks are rarely higher than a few thousand troops. Other than the top players, who might want to focus on you, no defense is going to stop them.

    For the rest, a few thousands at most, 400 traps alone will hurt a substantial amount of them, 2 or more trappers with some natural defense will actually stop them.


    I'm sorry you can't understand the game, if you actually believe people don't attack Gauls because of trappers.


    From reading your posts, it sounds like you're the typical Teuton player who can only play one way. Blinded to all possibilties.
    I'm obviously a typical teuton wanting to make my gaul farms weaker by asking the dev's to make them stronger. Wait, that makes no sense?! I play gauls usually, thanks for your "analysis" on what I might play.

    I'm sorry you don't understand the game if you really believe that no defense will stop a top player. But that doesn't have anything to do with this topic.

    While you go ahead and build your trappers and waste tons of res., I'm sure a teuton (not me) will be able to build many more maces. After all, you're paying for two lv.20 trappers and 800 traps while the teuton only has to pay for the troop costs (unless they really really want a lv.20 barracks).
    Quote Originally Posted by Shader View Post
    I still do think slightly faster siege weaponry would help with the sucky Hammers, and it would fit the Speed thing. I don't think Gauls need a super TS either.
    You do realize that the first idea I proposed is basically a building that would make their siege weapons slightly faster, right? It's not a super TS, it doesn't make TT's faster than they already are...
    Last edited by why not; 08-17-2010 at 02:38 PM.

  22. #22

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    I usually play Gaul, although I'm trying Roman this time to give that HDP a try. Last server, my favorite farms were the semi active Gauls. They were so productive, I gave my sitter plans for how to raid them when the traps appeared (fill them with cheap phalanx and keep the TTs rolling). I even provided a chart showing how many traps would repair maximum if the population didn't increase by a minimum amount. If they weren't freed by the time I was back on by the farm, I just freed them myself.

    By making the traps both more expensive AND removing autorepair, I really believe this just makes them even easier to farm. You expect some collateral damage from time to time facing active farms. In this case, most of my loss will still be phalanx, and the farm will have a harder time rebuilding the traps than before. Without the autorepair, you know you are in the clear after the first hit. Yes, Gauls will grow in peace a little longer now because of the increased fear factor. But traps are finite, troops less so.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by why not View Post
    I'm obviously a typical teuton wanting to make my gaul farms weaker by asking the dev's to make them stronger. Wait, that makes no sense?! I play gauls usually, thanks for your "analysis" on what I might play.

    I'm sorry you don't understand the game if you really believe that no defense will stop a top player. But that doesn't have anything to do with this topic.

    While you go ahead and build your trappers and waste tons of res., I'm sure a teuton (not me) will be able to build many more maces. After all, you're paying for two lv.20 trappers and 800 traps while the teuton only has to pay for the troop costs (unless they really really want a lv.20 barracks).

    You do realize that the first idea I proposed is basically a building that would make their siege weapons slightly faster, right? It's not a super TS, it doesn't make TT's faster than they already are...
    See, but Teutons are generally the smallest percentage of the population, so if we agree that Romans and Gauls typically avoid (other) Gaul farms that have a large enough pop for a Trapper (not to mention the probability that they are crannied up thanks to double size crannies): You are safe guarded from around 80% of the players for early game. Yeah, Teutons have scary Maces, but that is probably their best offensive unit because of Speed, Strength, Consumption, and Cost.

    And I am talking about an actual stat increase, not a TS bonus.
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  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shader View Post
    See, but Teutons are generally the smallest percentage of the population, so if we agree that Romans and Gauls typically avoid (other) Gaul farms that have a large enough pop for a Trapper (not to mention the probability that they are crannied up thanks to double size crannies): You are safe guarded from around 80% of the players for early game. Yeah, Teutons have scary Maces, but that is probably their best offensive unit because of Speed, Strength, Consumption, and Cost.

    And I am talking about an actual stat increase, not a TS bonus.
    Actually, I think everyone is safe from around 60% of players in early game simply because not everybody raids. Maybe another ~20% are "casual" raiders, they won't bother anyone with a pop bigger than 9. Then, there might be 10~15% who will raid small players and avoid gauls for a few days but farms anyone around. That leaves behind the smallest ~5% of heavy raiders.

    What's wrong with that scenario? Well, that last ~5% will not only raid their 7x7, they will have a 3 or 4 hour radius of farming within a few days. They won't just see a lot of gaul accts, be terrified, and let the gauls grow.

    So yeah, a gaul would be safe from the "majority" of the players, but then, so would any other tribe.

    There are several reasons why I didn't suggest an actual stat increase.

    1. travian dev's usually don't like anything that changes the basic stats of troops (they also don't like new troops, but that's another story)
    2. many people feel that an actual stat increase will overpower gauls, especially because some people seem to refuse to see that the roman and teuton unique buildings are far more powerful than a measly trapper and enhanced cranny.
    3. having an unique building that makes siege weapons faster means that another spot in the village will be used, therefore making it as balanced as the other unique buildings.

  25. #25
    Philosopher MokMonster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by why not View Post
    Actually, I think everyone is safe...
    Actually, I think you must be smoking something if you think your numbers are anywhere near reality. Maybe if you wait 2-3 weeks and spawn far out in the rim, but if you join in the few week or so, you'll find you get regular visits from almost everyone within your 13x13 unless you hit them first.

    Later in the game a lot more people will relax into sim mode, but generally speaking, most of the folks who start early are there to raid, raid, raid (and the rest are newbs who don't know any better).
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  26. #26
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    I wrote a text wall originally so lets see if i can shorten it down.

    Brewery is powerful only for ram hammers. All teuton anvils do not benefit from it. A teuton using the brewery auto takes them out of any operation unless it calls for them to be a rammer, to zero a village or be the one to pic up an artifact. Most will only ever use it for endgame and some don't even use it for that since they have no intention of being ram hammers.

    HDP is beneficial to hammers only. Roman scouts chew up too much wheat outside of HDP villages to be used for defensive reins. Roman cavalry is too expensive and horrible with def/wheat to be used for defense not to mention their only def worthy unit is the praet. So basically it is a hammer building only not to mention an extremely expensive building at that. Not to mention that a lvl 20 HDP will need to be built in any village you wish to store your cavalry in.

    Trapper is ok. It can benefit all gaul accounts however unless you pepper a village with them their use will not likely extend past the first couple months of the server. One of the major bonuses is that both the buildings and the traps are cheap. And as i found last night on s1r4 which is around 1-2 months old that a lvl 10 trapper was enough to lower a attacking teuton force by 14%. We could have had the trapper higher in lvl to the point where it could have trapped around 20-30% of the attacking force. That is a far greater bonus to defense than any bonus a brewery can give an offense.

    Now it would be nice for gauls to have a better racial building but for now i think the trapper is fine and even if there are lethal traps made i think I'd stick with the regular traps because in every proposed plan the traps as is seem superior.

    I'd also like to see tribal buildings for romans and teutons that are usable by both anvils and hammers and not just a specific couple of account builds.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MokMonster View Post
    Actually, I think you must be smoking something if you think your numbers are anywhere near reality. Maybe if you wait 2-3 weeks and spawn far out in the rim, but if you join in the few week or so, you'll find you get regular visits from almost everyone within your 13x13 unless you hit them first.

    Later in the game a lot more people will relax into sim mode, but generally speaking, most of the folks who start early are there to raid, raid, raid (and the rest are newbs who don't know any better).
    I said early game, not the first week of the server. Also, what you said just reinforces my point that everybody will get hit no matter what tribe...

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtyfrank View Post
    HDP is beneficial to hammers only. Roman scouts chew up too much wheat outside of HDP villages to be used for defensive reins. Roman cavalry is too expensive and horrible with def/wheat to be used for defense not to mention their only def worthy unit is the praet. So basically it is a hammer building only not to mention an extremely expensive building at that. Not to mention that a lvl 20 HDP will need to be built in any village you wish to store your cavalry in.
    HDP for only hammers? Seriously? Yes Roman scouts eat too much to be good reins, but you can make a much faster 1 wheat scout team than a Teut using one. I've turned a regular 6c into a nice base for about 1k scouts with a HDP, and never had to worry about neg wheat in the village. Enough scouts for most needs, that can hit far faster than a Teut for allies and not need the wheat of a Gaul to keep them. A 9c could allow over 3k with no negative wheat.

    The greatest issue I saw with EIs are raiders, was the high upkeep cost, with the HDP they are a bit slower than TTs, but carry more and have better attack. So rather useful outside a dedicated hammer there too.

    Finally, to say something is only useful in the hammer, is to say that it's only useful where it matters most. The HDP was serious love for Romans, far more than a brewery for Teuts that halts chiefing and makes your cats useless for anything other than a zero pop. The HDP is hands down the best tribal building.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermit View Post
    HDP for only hammers? Seriously? Yes Roman scouts eat too much to be good reins, but you can make a much faster 1 wheat scout team than a Teut using one. I've turned a regular 6c into a nice base for about 1k scouts with a HDP, and never had to worry about neg wheat in the village. Enough scouts for most needs, that can hit far faster than a Teut for allies and not need the wheat of a Gaul to keep them. A 9c could allow over 3k with no negative wheat.
    Yes it is great for a scout hammer. Even still when you're talking about scouting speed gauls are great too.

    HDP allows scouts be be used well in an offensive manner but they still suck just as normal in a defensive manner unless you are to be reining a roman village with a HDP. So except for rare cases they do not help anvils. Yes an anvil account can have a scout hammer but that scout hammer does not do as well as a scout anvil as a teuton scout anvil. [

    The greatest issue I saw with EIs are raiders, was the high upkeep cost, with the HDP they are a bit slower than TTs, but carry more and have better attack. So rather useful outside a dedicated hammer there too.
    TTs are still better in this regard.

    My opinion personally is that if you're going to be an active enough anvil to get a profit off of raiding (that means raid enough to have troops pay off themselves plus raid more than their upkeep and raid more than losses) then you might as well play a hammer. If not then it seems to me that it is more worth having extra defense or using all the resources on expanding your account rather than expensive cavalry and the necessary infrastructure for them.

    An anvil making a little mini ghost raiding force is just that a mini-ghost hammer. And unless you're raiding enough of a profit to benefit your anvil portion of your account the HDP has proven only useful to your mini ghost raiding hammer and not the anvil.
    Finally, to say something is only useful in the hammer, is to say that it's only useful where it matters most. The HDP was serious love for Romans, far more than a brewery for Teuts that halts chiefing and makes your cats useless for anything other than a zero pop. The HDP is hands down the best tribal building.
    Oh I'll agree it is the best of the tribal buildings. I'm just disappointed that even with that it only benefits units that are strictly offensive units.

    I will say that the trapper is the most versatile in that it can be used directly to benefit both a hammer and anvil however their usability dies out quickly during the server where the other two unique buildings reach their peak come endgame. Gauls really should have something that becomes better come late game.
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  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtyfrank View Post
    Trapper is ok. It can benefit all gaul accounts however unless you pepper a village with them their use will not likely extend past the first couple months of the server. One of the major bonuses is that both the buildings and the traps are cheap. And as i found last night on s1r4 which is around 1-2 months old that a lvl 10 trapper was enough to lower a attacking teuton force by 14%. We could have had the trapper higher in lvl to the point where it could have trapped around 20-30% of the attacking force. That is a far greater bonus to defense than any bonus a brewery can give an offense.

    Which is why I love trappers, its better than any 10% defense bonus, for the majority of attacks.

    Any attacker has to take into account at least 1 trapper, maybe more.

    With wheat neutral defense its the best static defense in the game. Only heavy neg wheat offensive villages or capitals can take them out with surity.


    Trappers aren't for end game, unless you know what you're doing. But they do indirectly assist you in end game.

  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baghernia View Post
    Which is why I love trappers, its better than any 10% defense bonus, for the majority of attacks.

    Any attacker has to take into account at least 1 trapper, maybe more.

    With wheat neutral defense its the best static defense in the game. Only heavy neg wheat offensive villages or capitals can take them out with surity.


    Trappers aren't for end game, unless you know what you're doing. But they do indirectly assist you in end game.
    It "protects" you from small raids. Big deal. It actually doesn't even protect you, it just takes a small piece of the attacking force out.

    10% is better than 400 traps very quickly, it doesn't even have to be hammer-sized attacks.

    Go to a combat simulator:
    5000 clubbies vs. 3000 phalanx, both easily achievable troop #'s.
    (assume pop. is same, no wall, no residence/palace for simplicity)

    Add lv.20 trapper (400 traps). See the result.
    Add a 10% def. bonus. See the result.

    10% def. bonus is a bit better with just a few thousand troops, and it just keeps getting better when you have to defend against actual hammers. I guess small raids are the "majority" of attacks although really, they're not the ones that actually matter.

    Trappers are for end-game if you know what you're doing? Haha. I have to say I'm clueless on that one, care to enlighten me on how they are for end-game?

  32. #32
    Merchant ppoo00ll1's Avatar
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    This is the right idea but a little too extreme. It would be good if it was more... small scale.

  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by why not View Post
    It "protects" you from small raids. Big deal. It actually doesn't even protect you, it just takes a small piece of the attacking force out.

    10% is better than 400 traps very quickly, it doesn't even have to be hammer-sized attacks.

    Go to a combat simulator:
    5000 clubbies vs. 3000 phalanx, both easily achievable troop #'s.
    (assume pop. is same, no wall, no residence/palace for simplicity)

    Add lv.20 trapper (400 traps). See the result.
    Add a 10% def. bonus. See the result.

    10% def. bonus is a bit better with just a few thousand troops, and it just keeps getting better when you have to defend against actual hammers. I guess small raids are the "majority" of attacks although really, they're not the ones that actually matter.

    Trappers are for end-game if you know what you're doing? Haha. I have to say I'm clueless on that one, care to enlighten me on how they are for end-game?

    Unless your targeted in a War, how often does attacks number more than a few thousands?

    I'm talking about the game as a whole....


    This is like talking to Jono in the ideas section...


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  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baghernia View Post
    Unless your targeted in a War, how often does attacks number more than a few thousands?

    I'm talking about the game as a whole....
    You missed my point yet again.

    "I guess small raids are the "majority" of attacks although really, they're not the ones that actually matter."

    If you're active, you won't find yourself being raided with less than a few thousand troops in mid and endgame (if you're a farm, of course you will get many small raids), and you will definitely be attacked by over a few thousand troops in any inner-quad wars starting mid-game, and there is a high chance of being attacked by over a few thousand troops in inter-quad wars as well, unless you're playing purely def. and not even faking the enemy.

    I'd rather have a building that will help me protect against the big rare dangerous attack than small raids that can easily be killed with my own def. I think you're making this subject go a bit off-topic, the topic is "aren't gauls weak when compared to the other two tribes, and don't they deserve something better..."

  35. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by why not View Post
    You missed my point yet again.


    I'd rather have a building that will help me protect against the big rare dangerous attack than small raids that can easily be killed with my own def. I think you're making this subject go a bit off-topic, the topic is "aren't gauls weak when compared to the other two tribes, and don't they deserve something better..."

    Nope because they serve their purpose, primarily early game and defence deterrent. The small attacks do matter, for the majority of the server, the majority of players.

    To attack a Teuton or Roman, feeder, you only really need to consider natural defense of neutral wheat, with a Gaul, you have to consider traps... essentially doubling/tripling the defense, and a need for a much bigger offensive army. Why then would you bother attacking a Gaul if a Teut or Roman is also an option.

    They're not suppose to match up with Brewery and HDP. Same as TTz aren't meant to match up with Paladins.


    On the whole I prefer the trapper over the other 2, as it can be used the entire game, and by virtually every Gaul how ever much they want.

    With the HDP and Brewery, you get a great tool for a purpose. But not every player will actually utilise it or able to take full advantage of it.
    Last edited by Baghernia; 08-18-2010 at 05:54 AM.

  36. #36
    Merchant dirtyfrank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baghernia View Post
    Which is why I love trappers, its better than any 10% defense bonus, for the majority of attacks.

    Any attacker has to take into account at least 1 trapper, maybe more.

    With wheat neutral defense its the best static defense in the game. Only heavy neg wheat offensive villages or capitals can take them out with surity.
    Yeah and no. I mean theoretically you can make tons of trappers in a village to make 4K traps or whatnot and that would be a huge deal for nearly the full server especially if made in a cap or hammer village. I have had an idea to fill up one of those villages at some point with traps and in later game they could still give around a 1% bonus or so and well every little bit helps.

    Quote Originally Posted by why not View Post
    It "protects" you from small raids. Big deal. It actually doesn't even protect you, it just takes a small piece of the attacking force out.
    Good because it's not meant to protect. It aids in defense. If you want to be protected build troops.



    10% is better than 400 traps very quickly, it doesn't even have to be hammer-sized attacks.
    Only once offensive forces start getting over 4,000 troops in size. But by this time a gaul can easily make a 2nd or 3rd trapper or just make more troops.

    Go to a combat simulator:
    5000 clubbies vs. 3000 phalanx, both easily achievable troop #'s.
    (assume pop. is same, no wall, no residence/palace for simplicity)

    Add lv.20 trapper (400 traps). See the result.
    Add a 10% def. bonus. See the result.
    The problem with simplicity is that it does a bad job of simulating reality. In reality if i have the ability to make and hold 3,000 phalanx i should also have the ability to lvl up my wall to say lvl 10-12 before the attack lands. Kinda like what i recently did before an attack landed the other day on a relatively new server. That is an easy 28-34% bonus. The other thing is that if someone is attacking me with 5,000 and all i can muster is 3,000 phalanx then likely I'd be smaller in pop so i'd be getting a morale bonus. However, i doubt any scenario I'd be in for defense would be like this. I'd more than likely end up with tons of prats and druids. The 5K clubs though well i do see clears like that a few months into game so it is not unheard of.

    Anyways if i can make that many troops or make a lvl 20 trapper i should also have the ability to lvl up my wall pretty dang high. Your scenario is bunk.

    Either way you're missing the most important thing. Defenses can stack. Now i know you picked those troop numbers for simplicity so I'll ignore the fact that most players would dodge that and instead focus on the ability of defenses to stack. If my nearest allies are as competent as I am they should have similar troop counts. So there would be no reason as to why we couldn't stack a few thousand praets and maybe a thousand or so spears on there. Very quickly the defense gets to be way more than what the attacker can handle and all from players that have defenses far weaker than the attacker.

    10% def. bonus is a bit better with just a few thousand troops, and it just keeps getting better when you have to defend against actual hammers. I guess small raids are the "majority" of attacks although really, they're not the ones that actually matter.
    If you want a defense against an actual hammer i would suggest maxing wall to lvl 20, teching troop research in armory to lvl 20 and getting reins from allies to stack the defense to as high as you can get it.

    Trappers are for end-game if you know what you're doing? Haha. I have to say I'm clueless on that one, care to enlighten me on how they are for end-game?
    During endgame there are tons of feeders that are often raided and catted. One of these feeders with a couple of trappers should have enough traps to trap most of these forces and to significantly aid in defense if you determine such is needed.
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    I'll just say first that I am loving this debate and I personally can't decide which side I am suppoting at the moment, I have seen great points everywhere..

    Quote Originally Posted by Baghernia View Post
    On the whole I prefer the trapper over the other 2, as it can be used the entire game, and by virtually every Gaul how ever much they want.

    With the HDP and Brewery, you get a great tool for a purpose. But not every player will actually utilise it or able to take full advantage of it.
    I think that the trapper is used in just the same way as the other two in your wording. To use the trapper through the whole game - and use it effectively at that - would take some real planning and indeed skill, meaning exactly how you described the other two. In that I have seen many players try to use traps against me mid-game but don't build it to a high enough level so that maybe 150 to 200 traps stop wave one, then in comes wave two to get the party started.

    I agree that early-on anyone can use the trapper well and you would be very naive to think that others will wave off the thereat of traps and attack Gauls as much as the other two (especially with the cranny bonus which I think a few people may be forgetting), but come mid-game most players can't maintain a good trapping system and it becomes useless to a major extent.

    I don't know who has overall the greatest advantage, but I think that player skill effects the game far more than the tribe-specific bonuses do myself.
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  38. #38
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    Feeders only need a few buildings. Main building, granary, warehouse, marketplace, maybe a trade office and probably 5 bonus buildings and a town hall. After a bit of remodeling throughout the course of the server a feeder can end up with around 9 free spaces which can be used for trappers. Or 3,600 traps and the feeder can still be fully functional. Maybe the village is an anvil village so you can't demolish the barracks. That is 8 trappers or 3,200 traps. That should still be enough to remove around 10% of most hammers during midgame.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtyfrank View Post
    Only once offensive forces start getting over 4,000 troops in size. But by this time a gaul can easily make a 2nd or 3rd trapper or just make more troops.

    The problem with simplicity is that it does a bad job of simulating reality. In reality if i have the ability to make and hold 3,000 phalanx i should also have the ability to lvl up my wall to say lvl 10-12 before the attack lands. Kinda like what i recently did before an attack landed the other day on a relatively new server. That is an easy 28-34% bonus. The other thing is that if someone is attacking me with 5,000 and all i can muster is 3,000 phalanx then likely I'd be smaller in pop so i'd be getting a morale bonus. However, i doubt any scenario I'd be in for defense would be like this. I'd more than likely end up with tons of prats and druids. The 5K clubs though well i do see clears like that a few months into game so it is not unheard of.

    Anyways if i can make that many troops or make a lvl 20 trapper i should also have the ability to lvl up my wall pretty dang high. Your scenario is bunk.

    Either way you're missing the most important thing. Defenses can stack. Now i know you picked those troop numbers for simplicity so I'll ignore the fact that most players would dodge that and instead focus on the ability of defenses to stack. If my nearest allies are as competent as I am they should have similar troop counts. So there would be no reason as to why we couldn't stack a few thousand praets and maybe a thousand or so spears on there. Very quickly the defense gets to be way more than what the attacker can handle and all from players that have defenses far weaker than the attacker.

    If you want a defense against an actual hammer i would suggest maxing wall to lvl 20, teching troop research in armory to lvl 20 and getting reins from allies to stack the defense to as high as you can get it.
    I didn't add a wall or residence for simplicity, but if you add them it just makes the 10% bonus even better than 400 traps... which is what I was trying to show. The scenario I showed was one player vs. another, without any alliance reinforcements. Same with defending against real hammers, the bigger the def. the better the bonus gets.

    235,680 res for a lv.20 trapper and 400 traps.
    With the same amount of res., ~942 clubbies can be produced.

    The whole point of what I'm trying to show is that trappers are inefficient because clubbies are cheaper than trappers and traps, and that most defenses that matter would benefit more from a 10% bonus rather than 400 or even 800 traps.
    Last edited by why not; 08-18-2010 at 03:40 PM.

  40. #40
    Philosopher MokMonster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by why not View Post
    235,680 res for a lv.20 trapper and 400 traps.
    With the same amount of res., ~942 clubbies can be produced.

    The whole point of what I'm trying to show is that trappers are inefficient because clubbies are cheaper...
    Actually, you've just made it clear that making a trapper and getting a few phalanx is by far the best way to go.

    You send 942 maces at me, and I can stop 400 of them... and before losing a single troop.
    To me, that's a pretty good trade off. Especially if I have a few hundred phalanx sitting behind a wall and those traps.

    I mean, you're saying that for equal resources I can stop 42.5% of your attacking force... that's a hell of a lot better than 10%.

    Let's say you get hit by 1200 maces and you have 600 phalanx behind a lvl 12 wall. You get slaughtered but kill 667 maces. Now you activate your 10% defense - you get slaughtered but kill 768 maces. Now get rid of the bonus but add in 400 traps - you still get slaughtered, but kill 800 maces, trap 400 and have 8 very traumatized phalanx still alive.
    And if you have even 50 TTs, you can then release those maces and follow them home, slaughtering the rest...
    MokMonster does not support, condone or agree with anything written in this post.
    Any suggestions to the contrary are purely unintentional.
    (Unless you agreed with it -- then I totally said it)

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