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Thread: End Game Alliance Analysis -- 11/16

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    Philosopher Marmot Man's Avatar
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    Default End Game Alliance Analysis -- 11/16

    Here we are, half way through the month of November. Artifacts for the most part have been claimed and for the nonce teams have been decided on. So, even with End Game three months or so away. who looks like they have the edge?

    While the numbers I will bring up are ones that anyone can find online (subject to change because of in game actions of course, but valid when I wrote this), the one thing I can provide is an unbiased opinion, due to my alliance's refusal to take a side or participate in End Game. I don't have a horse in this race, so to speak (pegasus avatar excluded), so let's see what I can come up with, pros and cons, and where that leads me.

    XXX, =XXX=
    -- 99 members. Smallest roster of the three contenders.
    -- It's two wings have the two highest scores for average population.
    -- #1 attack wing, #2 defense wing
    -- By population, its roster has 7 of the top 10 players, and 41 of the top 100
    -- Possesses 4 unique artifacts (Pheidippides' Sandals, Diary of Sun Tzu, Memoirs of Alexander the Great, Forbidden Manuscript).

    My thoughts: Quality over quantity seems to be the order here. Very impressive stats for its members. Still, I have two concerns for them regarding the WW race. The first is the numerical disadvantage they have. While it is very possible to compete with their numbers, IMT did it with less last round after all, they will likely be limited to just a single WW. Also, while they have the most unique artifacts, none of them are ones that will help a WW Holder enhance the defenses of the WW itself.

    |CC|, CC, CC-Skull, *CC*
    -- 210 members. Largest roster of the contenders.
    -- It's top two wings are comparable to XXX's in average pop, other two are a visible step lower.
    -- #2 attack wing, #5 defense wing
    -- By population, its roster has 1 top ten player, and 44 of the top 100
    -- Possesses 2 Unique artifacts (King Arthur's Chalice, Hemon's Scrolls).

    My thoughts: The Top 2 wings, while ranking lower than XXX, are close enough that I would call it a near dead heat. Backed by the other two wings to provide troops and resources, they should be able to effectively push two WWs when the time comes. And while they don't have the best of the best that XXX has account wise, they do have a very slight edge over all in excellent accounts. Also, the two unique artifacts they have are two of the best for helping a WW's defense. My main concern is how well will the leadership be able to keep the rank and file organized and interested. With such a large player base, it can be easy for lesser lights to feel ignored, or for voices to go unheard in the crowd.

    OAC-Tazz, OAC-TSL, OAC-ER, OAC-PNX
    -- 165 members.
    -- Smallest average alliance populations; only one wing has a higher average than any XXX or CC wing.
    -- #3 attack wing, #7 defense wing
    -- By population, has no top 10 players, and 5 top 100 players.
    -- Possesses 1 Unique artifact (Trojan Horse)

    My thoughts: They have the numbers to make a run at the win, but the power level of the accounts seem to be a few steps below the other two teams for the most part. I would say right now one WW is what they would be capable of taking and holding, which lines up nicely with the one unique artifact they have, a very good one for limiting their opponents' actions in attacking a WW.

    My conclusion: Right now, it looks like a two way battle between the XXX and CC teams, with OAC either playing a dark horse or a kingmaker role. If I had to choose right now, I think I would go with CC having the advantage. To my eye, they should be able to operate two wonders to XXX's one effectively, which means they should deplete their opponent's WW Hammers twice as fast, possibly faster due to having the better WW artifacts. That said, this certainly isn't a done deal by any stretch. It will be interesting to see what OAC does. If they choose to align with either of the other two powers, they would give a significant advantage in accounts, and with it one would hope a big boost in defense and resources to that team's Wonder(s). And of course, it will be important to watch and see if any of the unique artifacts change hands in the months to come. But for now, my favorite to win the server is CC.

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    Dan Chak's Avatar
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    Long story shortened: Zerg is a no-brainer, no-worry winning way to go!
    Quote Originally Posted by gebne View Post
    St. Chak, glorious atelier, faithful servant and bearer of thong,
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    particularly those of purple hue, and that I may read Chak with the thong throughout Eternity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmot Man View Post
    Well thought out, and factual analysis.
    It's a shame that quantity must be given an edge. I agree with you there. However, having been in several small "Elite" alliances...I have to say that, much like Travian's morale bonus favors the weak, the experience/activity/tenacity of a smaller, quality-oriented force can usually make-up for any lack in quantity.

    Furthermore, I would direct your attention to the robber boards, and point-out that activity and quality are clearly building bigger hammers than Zerg can imagine.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Chak View Post
    Long story shortened: Zerg is a no-brainer, no-worry winning way to go!
    As a top alliance leader on several past servers(and one current server), I can tell you...
    ...there is a fine line between zerging, and building an Endgame-ready team.
    I strive every day against offers of zerging...I've cut players...sabotaged diplomatic attempts...cannibalized inactives...cut ties...and generally discouraged adding anyone to the team.
    I have 8 of 10 Top Robbers.
    9 of 10 Top attackers.
    6 of the Top 10 players.
    62 of the Top 100 players.
    5 Unique artifacts.
    And yet, Somehow...despite all of the quality, despite all attempts to down-size...I'm still left with a 3-wing(and 1 support wing) META and get called a zerg newb.
    If you intend to win, it's a daily struggle to stay on the legitimate side of the line.
    Last edited by Trigger Finger; 11-18-2013 at 04:04 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by LuxCal View Post
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    Dan Chak's Avatar
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    There are 1400 accounts on S5 at this point, give or take. 200 or so of those accounts are directly related to CC. I'm no math whiz (or any other kind of whiz, really), but that is an extraordinary percentage of the accounts still active on the server for one alliance to have.
    14% of the total server and that's just the ones directly tied, not the naps/sekrit naps or bosom-buddies-we'll-include-you-in-the-end alliances?
    Tell me again how hard you strive to not zerg. With that much of the server rallying around your pole, you should have the a majority of the robbers/attackers/simmers. I mean, look at the numbers, lol!!
    Yes, to guarantee a win, you zerg. It's how it's done these days.
    Quote Originally Posted by gebne View Post
    St. Chak, glorious atelier, faithful servant and bearer of thong,
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    pray for me, that finally I may receive the alterations and the couture of thongs in all my fripperies, ornamentations, and trimmings,
    particularly those of purple hue, and that I may read Chak with the thong throughout Eternity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Chak View Post
    Yes, to guarantee a win, you zerg. It's how it's done these days.
    Gee whiz! You mean recruiting and diplomacy are important if an alliance wants to win!? Who would've thunk!
    Quote Originally Posted by Benedict Arnold View Post
    Now go on you, shoo!

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    Philosopher Comrade's Avatar
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    TBH, you can still have a functioning meta with 4 wings. Several years ago, most people didn't start saying zerg until you got up to 5 or 6. You can still have a tight-nit group with ~160 people.

    Here's hoping they're at least having war games to keep the rank and file engaged and on their toes. You guys do that when you get that big, right? Sending cat fakes, etc?
    Remember, this is an online forum. I have just as much poo to fling as you do.

    http://forum.travian.us/attachment.p...1&d=1247465912

    Quote Originally Posted by MokMonster View Post
    So if you can suck a golf bar through a garden hose and are willing to do so for the biggest/safest/most-survivalist man around, you will most likely live as long as he will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FTP View Post
    Gee whiz! You mean recruiting and diplomacy are important if an alliance wants to win!? Who would've thunk!
    Is that the society/polite way of calling it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Comrade View Post
    TBH, you can still have a functioning meta with 4 wings. Several years ago, most people didn't start saying zerg until you got up to 5 or 6. You can still have a tight-nit group with ~160 people.

    Here's hoping they're at least having war games to keep the rank and file engaged and on their toes. You guys do that when you get that big, right? Sending cat fakes, etc?
    They have 208 and several years ago there was a lot more than 1400 accounts left on a server by this point.
    Travian is getting some sad numbers these days. The .us servers, anyhow.
    Quote Originally Posted by gebne View Post
    St. Chak, glorious atelier, faithful servant and bearer of thong,
    the stain of the troll has caused you to be forgotten by many,
    but the true forum invokes you universally as the patron of things despised of;
    pray for me, that finally I may receive the alterations and the couture of thongs in all my fripperies, ornamentations, and trimmings,
    particularly those of purple hue, and that I may read Chak with the thong throughout Eternity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Chak View Post
    They have 208 and several years ago there was a lot more than 1400 accounts left on a server by this point. Travian is getting some sad numbers these days. The .us servers, anyhow.
    Yep, it has become much less popular. It's slowly fading away. Probably because it's not an app and can't be accessed on a mobile device like Spartan Wars and such. If only there was a travian app...

    Quote Originally Posted by Comrade View Post
    TBH, you can still have a functioning meta with 4 wings. Several years ago, most people didn't start saying zerg until you got up to 5 or 6. You can still have a tight-nit group with ~160 people.
    We are very tight-knit with the exception of the Skull wing unfortunately. Maybe it's because they're the new addition, or because of the history of friction between our wings, or simply because we're in two separate quads and can't assist each other often or easily. I'm not going to get into my thoughts about our relationship with them because what's been done is done.

    Other than that wing, however, our alliance is really close. Communication is excellent, and leadership is great . I have not once seen a problem in cohesiveness between CC, *CC*, CC. Rein calls are sent and answered quickly in my wing, as I give each member the ability to send MM's for urgent calls. Player X had the pleasure of meeting CC defense and paid dearly for it :P. Might take a few resource pushes to get those number back up. And you want to know the best part? XXX even tried splitting our reins by faking pretty much everyone, and still our defense was too much for the poor guy to take!!!

    Chalk up a victory for Care Bear Land.
    Last edited by kabooja; 11-19-2013 at 05:38 PM. Reason: Do not name player names.
    Quote Originally Posted by Benedict Arnold View Post
    Now go on you, shoo!

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    Dan Chak's Avatar
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    Well, jeez, I should hope you could get reins out. With a bazillion accounts, it should be easy as pie.
    Last I heard, Skulls had a major hate going on with CC, or what was CC before CC came to be... or something like that. Not sure how you all managed to sweet talk them into the zerg, but well done!

    I play via smartphone often enough and it's barely okay for raids with farm lists and cueing troops or leveling buildings, but waves are not possible sadly enough.
    My waves tend to suck balls anyway, but still...
    Quote Originally Posted by gebne View Post
    St. Chak, glorious atelier, faithful servant and bearer of thong,
    the stain of the troll has caused you to be forgotten by many,
    but the true forum invokes you universally as the patron of things despised of;
    pray for me, that finally I may receive the alterations and the couture of thongs in all my fripperies, ornamentations, and trimmings,
    particularly those of purple hue, and that I may read Chak with the thong throughout Eternity.

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    Philosopher Marmot Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Chak View Post
    Long story shortened: Zerg is a no-brainer, no-worry winning way to go!
    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger Finger View Post
    It's a shame that quantity must be given an edge. I agree with you there. However, having been in several small "Elite" alliances...I have to say that, much like Travian's morale bonus favors the weak, the experience/activity/tenacity of a smaller, quality-oriented force can usually make-up for any lack in quantity.
    Actually, right now the size isn't that big of an issue to me (IMT alum here remember), what I think swings it in CC's favor is the unique artifacts, or rather the lack of a unique artifact that directly helps WW defense in XXX's possessions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Chak View Post
    S5...Tell me again how hard you strive to not zerg.
    I'm sorry, I should have been more clear. I'm Not a leader on us5. I have been a leader on several servers, and I am currently a leader on us4.
    Quote Originally Posted by LuxCal View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritterbruder
    I came into these forums a happy go-lucky kid skipping down the street... But the flames have changed me. My once boyish charm has been replaced with contempt for poor posts and my smooth, silky face is scarred from many a propaganda war. The world is a dark place now, and I seek to bring light to this Hell.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FTP View Post
    Player X had the pleasure of meeting CC defense and paid dearly for it :P. Might take a few resource pushes to get those number back up. And you want to know the best part? XXX even tried splitting our reins by faking pretty much everyone, and still our defense was too much for the poor guy to take!!!

    Chalk up a victory for Care Bear Land.
    Haha!

    You're really chalking that up to a victory?

    Before I go into the analysis of those specific attacks, let's take a look at the other things that happened last night.

    CC #1 raider gets his capital/hammer village catted, including 15 level 17 wheat fields, level 20 TS, barracks, stable, etc. I should know since I cleared, you lost 24,000,000 res in defense alone just from the clear and there were 3 other hammers that followed me.

    Another top CC raider GETS HIS HAMMER COMPLETELY ZEROED. There was no defense there at all. Did you guys not even realize this happened yet? His hammer village is gone, as are his troops, his raid lists, etc. Very clearly his hammer too, seeing as we catted, GB/GS/WS and a bunch of great granaries and great warehouses.

    Catted and croplocked 5 more capitals and stole an artifact in the process. All of these were undefended.

    Then there's the attack you're saying you 'won', our player wasn't able to launch with the rest of us and sent early and had a real nice clear. I did some analysis on who lost what.

    Keep in mind this is the only target of the seven that you even came close to stopping us:

    Cost breakdown:

    First hit:
    XXX troops:
    10,212,705 resources

    CC troops:
    12,881,990 resources

    CC buildings/fields:

    Wheat fields: 9,556,680 resources (6 level 16 wheat fields zeroed, one taken from 16->7)
    Palace: 903,825 resources
    Wall: 197,680 resources

    XXX Bounty: 610,655 resources

    Second hit:

    XXX Troops
    9,871,205 resources

    CC Troops:
    14,551,350 resources

    CC Buildings:
    Wheat Fields – 1,509,560 resources
    Wall?


    Total Loss for CC:
    40,211,740+ resources

    Total Loss for XXX:
    20,083,910 resources

    If you think losing 2 of your top anvils and a bunch of wheat fields is worth killing a hammer that can be rebuilt in 14 days with a trainer (or with no arti and just GB/GS) then we will be seeing you again very soon



    So if you want to spin your propaganda machine and chalk last night up to a win in your book go ahead, I don't doubt you desperately need to convince your 220 players that you're 'winning' the war. But XXX knows what really happened, and based on our scoutings last night you reined pretty much all of the wrong targets and lost a bunch of capital fields, buildings, and defense. Good luck and I'm sure we will see you soon
    Last edited by SMOD polkadot; 11-19-2013 at 09:15 PM.

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    Math is hard
    ~Thomas, Peter "that's what she said" North

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    Report Edited. http://travian-reports.net/us/report/24344166d6e - Names of players are not allowed.

    CC doesn't lose villages.

    You take your little crop-lock "victories". We'll keep conquering.
    Last edited by kabooja; 11-19-2013 at 07:59 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Benedict Arnold View Post
    Now go on you, shoo!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FTP View Post
    http://travian-reports.net/us/report/24344166d6e

    CC doesn't lose villages.

    You take your little crop-lock "victories". We'll keep conquering.
    You don't lose villages huh?

    http://ts5.travian.us/karte.php?x=-42&y=-82

    That village was home to a top CC hammer and top raider yesterday


    Take lots of pride in chiefing a feeder that is right next to a CC hammer while knowing that one of your largest hammers was entirely zeroed yesterday with no defense at all.
    Last edited by kabooja; 11-19-2013 at 05:35 PM. Reason: Edited Battle Report.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gebne View Post
    St. Chak, glorious atelier, faithful servant and bearer of thong,
    the stain of the troll has caused you to be forgotten by many,
    but the true forum invokes you universally as the patron of things despised of;
    pray for me, that finally I may receive the alterations and the couture of thongs in all my fripperies, ornamentations, and trimmings,
    particularly those of purple hue, and that I may read Chak with the thong throughout Eternity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sublim3d View Post
    we will be seeing you again very soon
    They just don't help themselves do they... Coming on here and waving a chiefed feeder and some dodgy spin in the face of that ^ (see Cramer's summary of last nights events) is as hilarious as it is ridiculous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sharkky View Post
    They just don't help themselves do they... Coming on here and waving a chiefed feeder and some dodgy spin in the face of that ^ (see Cramer's summary of last nights events) is as hilarious as it is ridiculous.
    What if I consent and say you win the debate? What do you get out of it? Will XXX win the server? Because according to your earlier posts, travian is stupid and unfair, and CC has such an advantage because of its "zerging".

    Also, I've learned something very significant about your alliance. You are ALL offense. And maybe you haven't played a server until end-game, but there's another side that's of serious importance while holding a WW.

    So gloat about your ops. Yes, you did well. There were victories and defeats on both sides yesterday. I was very impressed by my confederation, who managed to cover many people at the same time.

    We have not yet begun our attack coordination. There was only one hit on XXX yesterday, and it ended in a chiefing. You couldn't even defend one person!!!!!! Meanwhile, we're communicating like you would not believe and fighting multiple fronts simultaneously.

    And yet, all this time we have remained in our quad, reserving our greatest strength for when you have exhausted your resources. Thank you very much for all those hammer troop numbers you gave us, and for providing us with other key insight into your alliance and how it operates... Like, for example, that you have a few large hammers that run all the ops while the other members either don't participate or fake.

    So good luck, XXX. I'll hand these threads back to you and leave the fighting to us5.

    For The Great CC Snugglebug Empire,

    -Andrew (Emsanity)
    Quote Originally Posted by Benedict Arnold View Post
    Now go on you, shoo!

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    Philosopher Comrade's Avatar
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    Guys, now, I'm not trying to pick on anyone in particular, but there is a lot of smack talk and not a lot of posted BRs. Some of us like to watch the carnage, if you would be so kind.
    Remember, this is an online forum. I have just as much poo to fling as you do.

    http://forum.travian.us/attachment.p...1&d=1247465912

    Quote Originally Posted by MokMonster View Post
    So if you can suck a golf bar through a garden hose and are willing to do so for the biggest/safest/most-survivalist man around, you will most likely live as long as he will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Comrade View Post
    Guys, now, I'm not trying to pick on anyone in particular, but there is a lot of smack talk and not a lot of posted BRs. Some of us like to watch the carnage, if you would be so kind.
    Yeah, what he said (where the hell have you been??)!
    Put up or shut up!

    Quote Originally Posted by gebne View Post
    St. Chak, glorious atelier, faithful servant and bearer of thong,
    the stain of the troll has caused you to be forgotten by many,
    but the true forum invokes you universally as the patron of things despised of;
    pray for me, that finally I may receive the alterations and the couture of thongs in all my fripperies, ornamentations, and trimmings,
    particularly those of purple hue, and that I may read Chak with the thong throughout Eternity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reluctance View Post
    Math is hard
    I can help with that!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Chak View Post
    Yeah, what he said (where the hell have you been??)!
    Put up or shut up!

    Oh, not much. Went and got a fiance (really good prices from availablebrides.ru), bought a house, then got bored and decided I didn't have nearly enough spreadsheets in my life so I came back to Travian.

    Quote Originally Posted by (X^2 + y^2 -1)^3 - x^2y^3 = 0 View Post
    I can help with that!
    Last edited by Comrade; 11-20-2013 at 04:25 AM. Reason: mobile
    Remember, this is an online forum. I have just as much poo to fling as you do.

    http://forum.travian.us/attachment.p...1&d=1247465912

    Quote Originally Posted by MokMonster View Post
    So if you can suck a golf bar through a garden hose and are willing to do so for the biggest/safest/most-survivalist man around, you will most likely live as long as he will.

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by FTP View Post
    Report Edited. http://travian-reports.net/us/report/24344166d6e - Names of players are not allowed.

    CC doesn't lose villages.

    You take your little crop-lock "victories". We'll keep conquering.
    "LOL little crop lock victories?" We destroyed level 17 fields in something like 5 capital croppers in your alliance, completely destroyed a hammer 15c village, stole one of your artifacts, and completely destroyed a couple of your alliance's biggest anvils, and in the process only lost 1 hammer that could be rebuilt in like 2 weeks... and your response is "Yeah but we chiefed a feeder village of one of your players" ?

    OK yeah, clearly XXX fails hard, there is no way we can compete with your superior travian skills.
    Quote Originally Posted by Furter View Post
    you're an uber god.
    Quote Originally Posted by RaTmasTeR View Post
    No I would have pulled a That1GuyRob on them =P
    That1GuyRob s5 | Icarus s4

  24. #24

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    We have no defense guys

    I have to admit, I've read a lot on this CC bashing and I haven't been a fan. I mean, they do what they can with what they have. If anything else we should commend them on their ability to spin. I'm not sure I can take a clear 2:1 loss and spin it into some kind of victory.

    With that said, does anybody know where we can find defense? We've spent all this time recruiting nothing but offensive accounts...I feel like such a fool.


    (No Double Posting, please. -Mod polkadot)
    Last edited by SMOD polkadot; 11-20-2013 at 06:58 PM. Reason: =^-^=
    ~Thomas, Peter "that's what she said" North

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    Dan Chak's Avatar
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    With all the secret and not so secret alliances going on, you're actually facing more like 5:1 odds.
    Still, if they all send waves with the rams at the tail end like I got two days ago, they may need all the help they can get.
    Quote Originally Posted by gebne View Post
    St. Chak, glorious atelier, faithful servant and bearer of thong,
    the stain of the troll has caused you to be forgotten by many,
    but the true forum invokes you universally as the patron of things despised of;
    pray for me, that finally I may receive the alterations and the couture of thongs in all my fripperies, ornamentations, and trimmings,
    particularly those of purple hue, and that I may read Chak with the thong throughout Eternity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FTP View Post
    Report Edited. http://travian-reports.net/us/report/24344166d6e - Names of players are not allowed.

    CC doesn't lose villages.

    You take your little crop-lock "victories". We'll keep conquering.

    sooo, the village is back to XXX and the CC guy who chiefed that village is deleting. hmmm i wonder why

  27. #27

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    I don't see how CC is going to do well when one of their top players doesn't even send his hero with his hammer
    http://travian-reports.net/us/report/24430392baf

  28. #28

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    Update.
    Peter North s5r6 XXX ~ WIN

  29. #29

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    Word carries on the wind, telling that the scrolls of the ancients have been liberated from the heart of Mordor... And that 2 more CC hammers are no longer with us...
    Last edited by sharkky; 12-01-2013 at 12:14 PM.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharkky View Post
    Word carries on the wind, telling that the scrolls of the ancients have been liberated from the heart of Mordor... And that 2 more CC hammers are no longer with us...
    I'm sorry, you look new, sharkky, but you should really post BR's with that. We really don't care about your smack talk, just show us the dead people.
    Remember, this is an online forum. I have just as much poo to fling as you do.

    http://forum.travian.us/attachment.p...1&d=1247465912

    Quote Originally Posted by MokMonster View Post
    So if you can suck a golf bar through a garden hose and are willing to do so for the biggest/safest/most-survivalist man around, you will most likely live as long as he will.

  31. #31

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    My dear lefty, that post wasn't written for your amusement... more my own. Don't be sorry though, no need for that.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharkky View Post
    My dear lefty, that post wasn't written for your amusement... more my own.
    Any ****** can come on the forums and make bold unsubstantiated claims. Thank you for proving it.
    Last edited by SMOD polkadot; 12-02-2013 at 11:56 PM. Reason: Filter Evasion
    Remember, this is an online forum. I have just as much poo to fling as you do.

    http://forum.travian.us/attachment.p...1&d=1247465912

    Quote Originally Posted by MokMonster View Post
    So if you can suck a golf bar through a garden hose and are willing to do so for the biggest/safest/most-survivalist man around, you will most likely live as long as he will.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benedict Arnold View Post
    Now go on you, shoo!

  34. #34

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    A quick look in a treasury will tell you who now holds Hemon's scrolls (which was of course a main point in this thread). The attackers and defenders boards are a good indication of who did what to who. Top CC raider lost his entire hammer against the this week's number one defender. The previous holder of Hemon's Scrolls had his cap hammer at home with no def or dodge enabled.

    Or I could post censored BR's, but honestly, if you're XXX you will have seen them in full glory, if you're CC then they will have been hidden from you by leadership, if you're neither then I bid you a nice server.

    Careful you don't choke on that popcorn Andrew...

  35. #35

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    to whom*...which is me

    Sharkky, everybody knows XXX doesn't have any defense. It's common knowledge at this point.
    ~Thomas, Peter "that's what she said" North

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